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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT

WILLIAM F. CLINGER, JR., Pennsylvania, Chairman BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York

CARDISS COLLINS, Illinois DAN BURTON, Indiana

HENRY A. WAXMAN, California CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland TOM LANTOS, California CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut

ROBERT E. WISE, JR., West Virginia STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico

MAJOR R. OWENS, New York ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida

EDLOPHUS TOWNS, New York WILLIAM H. ZELIFF, JR., New Hampshire JOHN M. SPRATT, JR., South Carolina JOHN M. MCHUGH, New York

LOUISE MCINTOSH SLAUGHTER, New STEPHEN HORN, California

York JOHN L. MICA, Florida

PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania PETER BLUTE, Massachusetts

GARY A. CONDIT, California THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia

COLLIN C. PETERSON, Minnesota DAVID M. MCINTOSH, Indiana

KAREN L. THURMAN, Florida JON D. FOX, Pennsylvania

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New york RANDY TATE, Washington

THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin DICK CHRYSLER, Michigan

GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota

BARBARA-ROSE COLLINS, Michigan MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of WILLIAM J. MARTINI, New Jersey

Columbia JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida

JAMES P. MORAN, Virginia JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona

GENE GREEN, Texas MICHAEL PATRICK FLANAGAN, Illinois CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida CHARLES F. BASS, New Hampshire

CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio

BILL BREWSTER, Oklahoma
MARSHALL "MARK” SANFORD, South TIM HOLDEN, Pennsylvania

Carolina
ROBERT L. EHRLICH, JR., Maryland

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont

(Independent)
JAMES L. CLARKE, Staff Director
KEVIN SABO, General Counsel

JUDITH McCoy, Chief Clerk
JEFFREY WILMOT, Professional Staff Member

BUD MYERS, Minority Staff Director
DAVID SCHOOLER, Minority Chief Counsel

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, AND CRIMINAL

JUSTICE

WILLIAM H. ZELIFF, JR., New Hampshire, Chairman ROBERT L. EHRLICH, JR., Maryland

KAREN L. THURMAN, Florida STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico

ROBERT E. WISE, JR., West Virginia ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida

GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi JOHN L. MICA, Florida

CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida PETER BLUTE, Massachusetts

TOM LANTOS, California MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana

LOUISE MCINTOSH SLAUGHTER, New JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona

York
GARY A. CONDIT, California
BILL BREWSTER, Oklahoma

Ex OFFICIO

WILLIAM F. CLINGER, JR., Pennsylvania CARDISS COLLINS, Illinois
ROBERT CHARLES, Staff Director and Chief Counsel

T. MARCH BELL, Counsel

MICHELE LANG, Counsel
SEAN LITTLEFIELD, Special Assistant and Clerk

OPENING STATEMENTS

McCollum, Hon. Bill, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida,

and chairman, Subcommittee on Crime

5

Zeliff, Hon. William H., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State

of New Hampshire, and chairman, Subcommittee on National Security,

International Affairs, and Criminal Justice

2

WITNESSES

Aguilera, Davey, Special Agent, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms 210
Altman, Roger, former Deputy Secretary of the Treasury

766
Ballesteros, Roland, Special Agent, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms 776
Barber, Lewis Gene, former lieutenant, McLennan County, TX, Sheriff's Of-
fice

168
Bagsett, Donald, former Crisis Management Specialist, Federal Bureau of
Investigation

302

Bentsen, Lloyd M., former Secretary of the Treasury.

509

Black, Daniel R., Deputy Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms 693

Buford, William, Resident Agent in Charge, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and

Firearms, Little Rock, AR.

414, 716

Cadigan, James, Firearms Expert, Federal Bureau of Investigation

718

Chojnacki, Phillip, former Special Agent in Charge, Bureau of Alcohol, To-

bacco and Firearms, Houston, TX.

411, 746

Coonce, John, Tactical Expert, Drug Enforcement Administration

298
Crain, Chris, Special Project Coordinator, U.S. Army Special Operations Com-
mand, Ft. Bragg, NC

352
Cuyler, Christopher, ATF Liaison to the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury 516
Deschamps, Robert, president, National District Attorneys Association

164
Dunagan, Earl, former Acting Special Agent in Charge, Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms, Austin, TX

218
Dunn, Sfc. Chris, U.S. Army Third Special Forces Group, Ft. Bragg, NC

351
Evans, Tim, attorney

579
Fitts, S. Sgt. Steve, U.S. Army Third Special Forces Group, Ft. Bragg, NC 370
Gardner, Steve, attorney

445
Goldstein, Gerald H., president, National Association of Criminal Defense
Lawyers

128

Hartnett, Daniel, former Deputy Director for Enforcement, Bureau of Alcohol,

Tobacco and Firearms

221, 755

Higgins, Stephen, former Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms 519
Holmes, Ambassador H. Allen, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Special
Operations and Low Intensity Conflict

356
Huffman, Brig. Gen. Walter B., U.S. Army, Assistant Judge Advocate General
for Military Law and Operations

345
Ishimoto, Wade, Technical Manager, Sandia National Laboratories

299
Jahn, Ray, assistant U.S. attorney, Department of Justice, accompanied by
LeRoy Morgan Jahn

93

Jewell, Kiri, resident at Mount Carmel, accompanied by her father David

Jewell

147

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Page Johnston, Bill, assistant U.S. attorney, Department of Justice

205 Kolman, John A., former captain, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department 588 Langan, Michael, former Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Treasury 538 Lindley, Lt. Col. Philip, former Deputy Staff Judge Advocate, U.S. Army Special Forces Command, Ft. Bragg, NC

350 Magaw, John W., Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

865 Merletti, Lewis C., Assistant Project Director, Department of the Treasury Waco Administrative Review Team ..........

418, 693 McMahon, Henry, firearms dealer

162 Moreland, S. Sgt. Robert W., U.S. Army Third Special Forces Group, Ft. Bragg, NC

351 Morrison, George, former chief, Metro Tactical Division, Los Angeles Police Department.

300, 599 Moulton, H. Geoffrey, Jr., Project Director, Department of the Treasury Review Team

218 Noble, Ronald K., Under Secretary for Law Enforcement, Department of the Treasury

816 Oboyski, Victor, president, Law Enforcement Officers Association

594 Owens, Ed, Firearms Expert, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

213 Perry, Bruce Duncan, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences, Baylor Medical College

214 Petree, Maj. Mark, formerly_attached to Third Division, Third Brigade, Army Special Forces Group, Ft. Bragg, NC

355 Pickler, Maj. Gen. John M., former Commander, Joint Task Force Six

354 Reavis, Dick J., author of "The Ashes of Waco"

47 Rodriguez, Robert, Special Agent, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms 749 Sanders, Robert E.,

former Deputy Director for Enforcement, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

293 Sarabyn, Chuck, former Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Houston, TX

217, 412, 748 Simpson, John, former Acting Assistant Secretary of the Treasury

519 Sparks, Joyce, Texas Department of Child Protective Services

575 Thibodeau, David, resident at Mount Carmel ...

123 Wheeler, Sharon, Special Agent, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms 762 Williams, John Henry, Special Agent, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Fire

717, 748 Wright, Stuart A., associate professor of sociology, Lamar University

81
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARINGS
Barr, Hon. Bob, a Representative in Congress from the State of Georgia:
Department of Justice news release dated July 21, 1995

608 Sundry document relative to the hearings

657 Treasury Department documents dated April 9 and 14, 1993

553 Bryant, Hon. Ed, a Representative in Congress from the State of Tennessee: Prepared statement

40 Raid day February 28, 1993, chart

937 Chabot, Hon. Steve, a Representative in Congress from the State of Ohio: BATF documents dated October 26, 1994

695 Summary meeting documents......

714, 720 Clinger, Hon. William F., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of Pennsylvania: Prepared statement

18 Collins, Hon. Cardiss, à Representative in Congress from the State of Illinois: Prepared statement

25 Condit, Hon. Gary A., a Representative in Congress from the State of California: Prepared statement

42 Conyers, Hon. John, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of

Michigan: Letter dated July 13, 1995, from Albert W. Alschuler, University of Chicago Law School

810 Evans, Tim, attorney: Prepared statement

625 Goldstein, Gerald H., president, National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers: Prepared statement

130 Holmes, Ambassador H. Allen, Assistant Secretary of D-fense for Special Operations and Low Intensity Conflict: Prepared statement

358 Huffman, Brig. Gen. Walter B., U.S. Army, Assistant Judge Advocate General for Military Law and Operations: Prepared statement

346 Jahn, Ray, assistant U.S. attorney, Department of Justice: Prepared statement

100

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Page 151

590

865

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488

911

824

234

68 52

24

295

Jewell, Kiri, resident at Mount Carmel: Prepared statement
Kolman, John A., former captain, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department:

Prepared statement
Magaw, John W., Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms: Pre-

pared statement
McCollum, Hon. Bill, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida,

and chairman, Subcommittee on Crime: Opening statement
Merletti, Lewis C., Assistant Project Director, Department of the Treasury

Waco Administrative Review Team: Prepared statement
Mica, Hon. John L., a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida:

Partial Treasury Department document dated February 16, 1994
Noble, Ronald K., Under Secretary for Law Enforcement, Department of

the Treasury: Prepared statement
Perry, Bruce Duncan, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor of psychiatry and be-

havioral sciences, Baylor Medical College: Prepared statement Reavis, Dick J., author of "The Ashes of Waco":

Correspondence with various Government agencies

Prepared statement
Rosedale, Herbert L., president, American Family Foundation (AFF) and

William Rehling, president, Cult Awareness Network (CAN): Prepared

statement Sanders, Robert E., former Deputy Director for Enforcement, Bureau of Alco

hol, Tobacco and Firearms: Prepared statement Schumer, Hon. Charles E., a Representative in Congress from the State

of New York: Prepared statement
Shadegg, Hon. John B., a Representative in Congress from the State of

Arizona: Departments of Defense, Justice, and Treasury documents
Taylor, Hon. Gene, a Representative in Congress from the State of Mis-

sissippi: Prepared statement
Thibodeau, David, resident at Mount Carmel: Prepared statement
Thurman, Hon. Karen L., a Representative in Congress from the State of
Florida:

Department of the Treasury documents concerning authorization
Letter dated March 28, 1993, to President Bill Clinton from David S.

Jewell

Prepared statement
Watt, Hon. Melvin L., a Representative in Congress from the State of North

Carolina: Statements of individuals on helicopter denying they fired at
any point
Wright, Stuart A., associate professor of sociology, Lamar University: Pre-

pared statement Zeliff, Hon. William H., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State

of New Hampshire, and chairman, Subcommittee on National Security,
International Affairs, and Criminal Justice:

Opening statement
Treasury Department document dated April 9, 1993

12

957

192 126

471

158

9

387

87

4 898

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