us to call our witnesses who you may feel are tangential to the hearings.

Let's bring the NRA employees here to find out exactly how great their role was in organizing these hearings and finally-well, one other point; talking about spin, that the White House has spin control on this hearing. My goodness, this is like Claude Rains saying in the cafe in Casablanca, "Gambling here? My goodness, does it exist?" I don't see anyone on the majority side saying they don't need a press secretary anymore. Now come on.

Finally, as we move into the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th days of the Waco hearings, the issues of balance and perspective become more apparent. We are investigating these events again. That's fine. But it's outrageous that we still have not had a single day of hearings into a problem that concerns a lot more Americans and poses a far greater risk than the supposed abuses by the ATF or the FBI; the prevalence of paramilitary militias, many of whom are motivated by the events at Waco.

Finally, I am confident the panels this week-that's the third "finally" I've said, I realize that. Finally, I am confident that the panels this week will show once again that we already know that the ATF and the FBI messed up but only because they were faced with an armed madman who was sexually abusing little girls inside his compound.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. Mr. Schumer, you went well over your time. I want to make a couple of quick comments in response before I yield to Mrs. Thurman.

First of all, we have no intention of calling John Podesta. He will not be called, as far as I know, as a witness. That is not our intent. Second, with respect to the question of the military, after an exhaustive review of the ATF's contact with the Army last week it became very clear that our military neither directed nor took part in the Waco raid by the ATF and the posse comitatus laws were not broken. But where there is responsibility, which to date has been shirked as such appears to be the case with some at the Treasury Department, these hearings have brought these facts to light. I think that that needs to be said as well.

Last but not least, while we have not talked about it and I did not intend to inject them into these hearings as you have been attempting to do, we will hold hearings, probably a couple days of hearings, on the so-called militia, among other things, after we reconvene in the fall.

Mr. SCHUMER. I compliment you on that and salute you on it.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. All of that has been attempted and planned. But to interject some of these things that we have been interjecting into these hearings and have all the bickering and disagreement has not been helpful to the process. So I hope you and I can together work along with Mrs. Thurman and Mr. Zeliff to make sure that we get just out on the facts this week and get on line with what we need to be doing here.

Mr. SCHUMER. Mr. Chairman, just one quick point.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. Very quickly.

Mr. SCHUMER. I want to thank you for saying that we will have militia hearings. I think they are important, and I think that means a great deal to us.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. Mrs. Thurman.

Mr. MICA. Mr. Chairman, one point of clarification in response to the gentleman's remarks.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. I don't believe we ought to get into that, Mr. Mica. If we do, it will just go on forever.

Mr. MICA. He inferred that members on this side of the aisle had a press secretary, we all did. I've never had a press secretary. I don't intend to employ one.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. It is noted. We do all have press secretaries, as he well knows. In addition to a press secretary, which clearly the President has, he hired Mr. Podesta just to do damage control.

Mrs. Thurman.

Mrs. THURMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I think.

As we begin our second week of hearings, I would like to take this opportunity to review what I have personally learned from these hearings. To begin with, let me reiterate that I truly believe that these hearings can serve a constructive purpose.

Starting on Wednesday, we heard compelling testimony into the character and beliefs of David Koresh. While I still believe this is a vital component in this process, they were collaborated by Ms. Joyce Sparks of the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services, Division of Child Protective Services, and then again by Dr. Bruce Perry of Baylor University.

On the second day we heard from Bill Buford, recalling the horror of the raid itself as he watched his friends and fellow officers wounded and killed. Every one of us was moved by Mr. Buford's account. Few, if any, of us in this room have ever faced a situation as dangerous as the one Mr. Buford and his fellow officers faced that February day outside of Waco.

This past Friday we took testimony from the distinguished former Secretary of the Treasury, Lloyd Bentsen. While many of my friends on the majority side of the dais spent 5 minutes assigning blame to the mistakes-and there were many significant mistakes in the raid-few took the time to understand what the chairmen have told us on this joint subcommittee the real purpose of these hearings are; to see what corrective measures have been taken and what we here in the Congress can do to make sure a tragedy such as this never occurs again.

Secretary Bentsen walked us through the detailed process of the review of the raid. Here are some important facts that may have been overlooked. No ATF personnel participated in the review to help guarantee the independence of the findings; 17 senior investigators from the IRS, the Secret Service, the Customs Service, and the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network helped with the preparation of the blue book. In addition, 10 outside experts, some of whom we have already heard from, were also brought in to analyze the problems. All involved served without pay. They took over 5 months to complete an exhaustive and thorough approach.

As a result of the findings of the review board, the ATF leadership in Washington and in the field was replaced and other agents were dismissed.

Finally, lessons were learned and actions were taken to correct the problems. Secretary Bentsen freely stated that there was a pattern of inadequate oversight by main Treasury and insufficient

communication between the Office of Law Enforcement and the bureau it is charged with supervising.

Mr. Bentsen concluded by reminding us that steps were taken to improve formal and informal communications within the Department of Treasury.

The blue book, while very detailed, may have some minor and important facts missing from its final product. However, up to this point, I have heard nothing here that would lead me to believe that there was a coverup of the facts.

Remember, the blue book is still being praised by many inside and outside Washington for its frankness and detail.

Today we will wrap up the Treasury portion of the hearings as we hear from more ATF agents who participated in the raid and Secretary for Enforcement Ron Noble; the current ATF Director, John Magaw; the former head of the Secret Service. I want to-I want at this time to welcome our witnesses.

But in closing, I would like to go back to a few statements contained in Ms. Sparks' written testimony from Friday. Ms. Sparks stated that once the raid occurred, it was a certainty that the siege would end with a fire. She had taken the time to gather intelligence into Koresh's views. This is one important lesson that I hope has been learned by the Treasury Department.

În addition, however, Ms. Sparks said that we must address what has happened here, learn from it, and move forward. I agree completely with these sentiments, and I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back the balance of my time.

Mr. MCCOLLUM. Thank you, Mrs. Thurman.

What you have just cited about Ms. Sparks and much of what she had to say was new, revealing, and had not come out before, and I thought it was interesting.

I am now going to bring forward our witnesses by introduction, and then after we've done that I will ask you all to stand, but not until after we've done it and swear you in as witnesses. The introductions, by the way, are not in the order that you are seated, so fear not. You are seated in the right places. It's just that my sheet is a little different from where you are.

First of all, we have Robert Rodriguez, ATF Special Agent. We have Chuck Sarabyn, former ATF Assistant Special Agent in Charge of the Houston office and tactical commander for the raid at Mount Carmel. We have Phillip Chojnacki, former ATF Special Agent in Charge of the Houston office and overall incident commander at Waco. We have with us today Sharon Wheeler, ATF Special Agent and public information officer on raid day. We have Dan Hartnett, former ATF Deputy Director for Enforcement. Daniel Black, an official in the ATF Personnel Office. Lewis C. Merletti, Secret Service Agent and Assistant Project Director of the Treasury Department review team. James Cadigan, FBI Special Agent and an expert in firearms. William Buford, ATF Resident Agent in Charge of the Little Rock office and commander of one of the Special Response Teams on raid day. Roger Altman, former Deputy Secretary of the Treasury, who could not be with us Friday. We're glad you're here with us today, Mr. Altman.

Now at this point in time, I would like to ask if each of you would rise, and I will swear you in under oath.

We have two names we didn't have in the introduction? Roland Ballesteros who was an ATF Agent at the time; and John Henry Williams, who also was an ATF Agent. I apologize for not having caught that.

If you would raise your right hand, please, gentlemen.

[Witnesses sworn.]

Mr. MCCOLLUM. Please be seated.

Let the record reflect that all of the witnesses answered in the affirmative.

Today we have a very large panel. We do not have a system for going through the process of having opening statements, and we go right to the questioners. The first person I'm going to recognize this morning on our side of the aisle is Mr. Chabot.

Mr. Chabot, you have 5 minutes.

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Merletti first. Sir, you have already testified that Agent Rodriguez, who was undercover at the time, warned Agent Cavanaugh and then Agent Sarabyn that David Koresh knew the raid was coming. Is that correct?

STATEMENT OF LEWIS C. MERLETTI, ASSISTANT PROJECT DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY WACO ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW TEAM

Mr. MERLETTI. Yes.

Mr. CHABOT. And then Agent Sarabyn reported to Agent Chojnacki that Koresh knew they were coming, and both Sarabyn and Chojnacki, quote-and there is your quote, I believe-lied to their superiors and investigators about what Rodriguez had reported, correct?

Mr. MERLETTI. Correct.

Mr. CHABOT. In fact, Mr. Merletti, you went so far in your testimony last week as to suggest that the implication of your findings is that, in lying to investigators, Mr. Sarabyn and Chojnacki could be guilty of felony offenses.

Mr. MERLETTI. You said that, sir, yes.

Mr. CHABOT. I believe after looking at the documentation you agreed with that at the time?

Mr. MERLETTI. Yes.

Mr. CHABOT. In fact, you had 61 witnesses to support the findings that the agents had lied about those after the events, correct? Mr. MERLETTI. Yes, sir.

Mr. CHABOT. Now, Mr. Black, I have some questions for you, sir. As we know, the ATF proceeded with the raid even though the element of surprise was lost. Many people, including some very brave law enforcement officers, in fact, wound up dead. The Treasury report concludes and I quote Sarabyn and Chojnacki lied to their superiors about what Rodriguez had reported.

The Department, right up to the present moment, has never retracted that very strong statement, is that correct?

STATEMENT OF DANIEL R. BLACK, DEPUTY DIRECTOR,
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS

Mr. BLACK. That's correct.

Mr. CHABOT. And the report says that not only did Agents Sarabyn and Chojnacki lie, but that they also tried to shift blame to Mr. Rodriguez, who is also here this morning there, as a junior agent, and that they later altered documentary evidence.

Isn't it true, Mr. Black, that as a result of all this alleged misconduct, you, as the Deputy Director of the ATF, fired Agent Sarabyn and Agent Chojnacki by removing them from Federal service?

Mr. BLACK. That's correct.

Mr. CHABOT. You reviewed the Treasury report, you reviewed the testimony of all the witnesses, you met with both agents, and you decided to remove each of them from Federal service for four separate reasons, including intentionally making false statements. Is that correct?

Mr. BLACK. That's correct.

Mr. CHABOT. Now, your decision to fire these agents comes in some documents dated October 26, 1994, and I will ask that copies of your memos firing these men be distributed and that they be included in the record. So I would appreciate it if the clerk would have those distributed at this time. They are documents 24 and 25. [The documents follow:]