The CHAIRMAN. So that from the time when the Munson lease was made by the War Department, August 31, 1920, up to the time when the War Department turned them over to the Shipping Board, January 1, 1921, the War Department received how much per month?

Mr. HOFFMAN. From the Munson Co., $16,725 per month.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a correct statement of the affair with regard to the Munson lease?

Mr. HOFFMAN. That is a correct statement with regard to the Munson lease. The CHAIRMAN. Now, with regard to the Cosmopolitan lease, that was dated when?

Mr. HOFFMAN. The 8th day of January, 1920.

The CHAIRMAN. And the rental was $15,000?
Mr. HOFFMAN. $15,000 per month; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That money was received monthly by the War Department up to the time when that Cosmopolitan lease was turned over to the Shipping Board?

Mr. HOFFMAN. January 1, 1921. In other words, they received practically a year's rent from the Cosmopolitan and four months' rent from the Munson. The CHAIRMAN. And those amounts were net to the War Department? Mr. HOFFMAN. Net to the War Department, but turned over as miscellaneous receipts, United States Treasury.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, what was the condition of those two leases after the Shipping Board secured the property?

Mr. HOFFMAN, They were turned over through me to the Board on January 1, 1921. The lessees in both instances accepted the Shipping Board as lessor by assignment of the leases. In other words, they accepted assignment of the leases from the War Department to the Shipping Board.

The CHAIRMAN. And did the Shipping Board receive those monthly rentals from that time until the leases were canceled this month?

Mr. HOFFMAN. In the case of the Cosmopolitan we received the monthly rental of $15,000 from January 1, 1921, up until August 1, 1922. In the case of the Munson the charge was a book charge only, the total cost of $16,725 per month being pro rated over the vessels which used the dock during the month.

The CHAIRMAN. And those vessels were all Shipping Board vessels? Mr. HOFFMAN. Those were Shipping Board vessels in all cases except two. There were two instances. and two only, where privately owned vessels used the Hoboken piers. One was the case of the steamship Kirkpatrick, which was sold by the War Department to a Greek line, the name of which is unknown. The War Department promised this line that they would berth the vessel at Pier 5 or Pier 6, Hoboken. Piers 5 and 6 burned down, and the War Department was therefore unable to fulfill its promise. They therefore requested the Cosmopolitan Steamship Co. to furnish a berth for this company at Pier No. 2. This was done, and the vessel was actually berthed at Pier No. 2.

The second instance was the case of a Munson Steamship Co. vessel which had aboard 200 tons of cargo for transshipment to a Munson allocated vessel in the South American trade. This cargo was booked for transshipment, but instead of discharging the cargo at Pier 9, East River, which is the Munson pier. the vessel was sent to Hoboken, where she discharged the 200 tons of cargo, and a charge was made against the vessel for the use of the berth. This was done to save the Shipping Board from expending a considerable amount of money for transferring the 200 tons of cargo by lighter.

The CHAIRMAN. Was the Munson line operated independently while the War Department operated the docks?

Mr. HOFFMAN. You mean, was its pier operation independent?

The CHAIRMAN. No. Was the Munson line an independent operation, operating independently of the Government and of the Shipping Board or anybody else?

Mr. HOFFMAN. No, sir; the vessels which it berthed at this pier at Hoboken were Government-owned vessels allocated to it by the Shipping Board.

The CHAIRMAN. And was that true while the War Department operated those piers?

Mr. HOFFMAN. My understanding is that that was true at that time.
The CHAIRMAN. Was that true with regard to the Cosmopolitan line?
Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Was all the rest of the dockage there, except the two docks that had been leased to the Munson Line and to the Cosmopolitan Line, as you have indicated, used exclusively for Government purposes?

Mr. HOFFMAN. You mean, under the War Department?

The CHAIRMAN'. Yes.

Mr. HOFFMAN. I am not able to say, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Has it been under the Shipping Board?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Under the Shipping Board; yes, sir.

Commissioner O'CONNOR. It was under the War Department too.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, make any statement you think the record ought to contain with regard to the view of the Shipping Board on the matter.

Mr. HOFFMAN. I would like to get before the committee the point that by its control of docks in the harbor of New York the Shipping Board is in a position to prevent serious profiteering in New York piers. You probably are aware, Senator, of the turmoil that existed up there during and after the war, when berths went as high as $600 a day for a vessel. I have always contended that by our control of the Hoboken, docks and docks in South Brooklyn we control enough docks in the harbor to prevent any further recurrence of that profiteering.

I would like to give our berthing rates at Hoboken for the record. A boat that is loading and discharging we charge 33 cents per net registered ton per day; for offshore operations, 2 cents per net registered ton per day; idle vessel, 1 cents per net registered ton per day; United States Shipping Board laid up vessels, 2 cents per ton for the first 200 tons, the balance at one-half cent per ton per day; for cargo on the dock, on the lower deck, $5 per doorway-about 700 square feet-per day; on the upper deck, $4 per doorway per day; water, 7 cents per ton; lights, 50 cents per light per night.

With regard to the two items of water and lights alone, we have reduced what was probably the standard port charge of 25 to 40 cents a ton for water

Commissioner O'CONNOR. An average of 35 cents.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes-we have reduced that down to 7 cents per ton. That means a saving of something like $50,000 a year on our fleet for water alone. On lights we have reduced the standard port charge of $1 per light per night to 50 cents.

The CHAIRMAN. And you think that has a tendency to equalize and stabilize the entire dockage situation in the port of New York?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Undoubtedly, sir; there is no question about that.

The CHAIRMAN. Are these docks at Hoboken open to any vessel except those which are owned by the United States Shipping Board?

Mr. HOFFMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So that there is no general business done at these docks for the public, except such business as may be directly connected with boats of the United States Shipping Board?

Mr. HOFFMAN. I desire to make this statement along that line. There is absolutely no possibility of profit to any person or concern through the operation of the Shipping Board terminal at Hoboken, N. J., by the Shipping Board. The only vessels accommodated at that terminal are Government vessels, and therefore all transactions concerning wharfage and dockage are in reality book transactions only.

The CHAIRMAN. I presume the Shipping Board is looking forward to the time when these docks, like the shipping under its control, will in some way and under safe conditions be turned over to private owners and private operators; in other words that these docks would be treated precisely the same a the ships?

Commissioner O'CONNOR. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, the Shipping Board would have no these docks if it got rid of its shipping? Commissioner O'CONNOR. That is right.

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Mr. HOFFMAN. Except that you must always have control of them, sir. matter what other hands they should go into, we feel we should have control of the matter of regulating charges. We never want Government property used for the purpose of profiteering. In other words, if a man should take these docks over at a reasonable rental, we do not believe he is privileged

charge what he can get from any ship that comes into the port; we believe his charges for berthage and dockage should be within reason.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you impose the same conditions and exercise the same supervision over a fleet of vessels that an individual purchaser might acquire from you?

Commissioner O'CONNOR. In the latter case it would be an out-and-out purchase. With regard to the docks my judgment is that the docks should never be sold to individual owners, but should rather be turned over to the State of New Jersey, or to the port authority, or to some agency that should own them, perhaps, or operate them, with due protection for the public in regard to charges and use.

Mr. HOFFMAN. That is the point exactly.

Commissioner O'CONNOR. There are three possible bodies to which those piers could be turned over; that is, the port authority, the city of Hoboken, or the State of New Jersey.

The CHAIRMAN. Have the two docks that were burned been rebuilt?

Mr. HOFFMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there a demand for them, or are the remaining four docks entirely sufficient?

Mr. HOFFMAN. We could use another pier there very nicely, and, as a matter of fact, plans have been drawn for a pier to take the place of the two that were destroyed. But that would cost so much money that the Shipping Board has not felt it should appropriate that money at this time. About $2,000,000 is what it would cost.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the Shipping Board contemplate the use of any of those docks for rental or other income-producing purposes outside of the use for their own ships?

Mr. HOFFMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The information which has come before the committee thus far indicates that these docks were a substantial part of the taxable property within the corporate limits of the city of Hoboken, equaling, as I remember it, something like 12 to 14 per cent of the total taxable real property in the city; so that when the Government took over this property it deprived the city of Hoboken of approximately more than 10 per cent of its taxable income, and yet the city of Hoboken still maintains its fire, police, and street expense, directly and indirectly affecting this property. Under those circumstances is there in your judgment any relief which ought to be granted to the city of Hoboken? Commissioner O'CONNOR. I should hesitate to express any opinion upon this matter, which is a matter with which Congress alone will have to deal. I do want to say that there has been a certain amount of public advantage from the operation of these docks by the Shipping Board, because during and after the war the docks generally in the port of New York were charging all the way from $250 to $600 per day for dockage privileges, whereas under the stabilizing influence of the operation of these docks by the Shipping Board, together with the operation by the Shipping Board of the docks at Brooklyn, which latter docks are open to the public, the price for dockage has been reduced to approximately $175 to $200 a day, and is reasonably stabilized.

Mr. HOFFMAN. It would be fair to say that if the Shipping Board is required to take out of its income any amount for taxes to the city of Hoboken, it will simply increase the operating expense of the Shipping Board and correspondingly increase the charges which the Shipping Board will have to make.

I have certain other data, Mr. Chairman, which probably will be of use to the committee, and which I shall insert at this point.

(The matter referred to was subsequently furnished by Mr. Hoffman, and is here printed in full, as follows:)

Without giving names of operators or pier numbers, the following examples of berthing charges are given:

It must be borne in mind that the rates entitled "Former rate per berth per day" are not the high rates charged toward the close of the war and immediately thereafter.

The following line up shows the present use being made of the various piers: Pier No. 1: Used by Munson Steamship Co., which has allocated vessels in South American trade. Berths must be made available on demand for vessels of the Panama Railroad Steamship Co., a Government agency.

Pier No. 2: Used by the Cosmopolitan Steamship Co., for handling allocated vessels.

Piers Nos. 3 and 4: Used by the United States Lines for berthing passeng liners in the European trade. A certain amount of cargo is handled by the same vessels.

Pier No. 5: Shed completely destroyed by fire. Used to tie up idle passenger vessels, such as President Grant, Agamemnon, etc.

Pier No. 6: Shed partially destroyed by fire; not safe for handling cargo. Used as tug base for Shipping Board tug fleet in New York Harbor. Tugs tied up, provisioned, and minor repairs made.

Bulkhead building: Used for waiting rooms for passengers, officers of steamshiip companies, offices of Shipping Board, and storage of ships' cargo.

(Whereupon, at 10:45 o'clock a. m., the subcommittee adjourned to meet at the call of its chairman.)

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