Mr. TURPIN. Not of these particular projects that are subject to this payment in lieu of taxes. INCREASE IN RENTAL COSTS Mr. THOMAS. Before you leave that subject, you show a slight decrease in Government-leased space, but your overall dollar mark goes up every year, even when the agency is fortified with the Executive order. That certainly has some potency to it. The Civil Service Commission testified that the Federal employment is going to be practically the same this year as it was last year. So, why the increase, generally, in public buildings and grounds here? Mr. WALLACE. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the personnel in the agencies we house other than Defense has increased. The decrease has been in Defense. Mr. YATES. Also, the statement on page I-22, Mr. Chairman, indicates something about it and I think it ought to go in the record, because it shows an increase of $1.3 million in utility costs and increased rental costs, even though the reduction in space used goes down. There is an increase of rental cost of $1 million. Mr. WALLACE. Yes; more per foot each year. Mr. YATES. Why is that? Does it reflect increased rental of the buildings you are in or have you moved to higher cost space? Mr. WALLACE. A number of the leases expire and we have to renegotiate for continued use. Rental rates have gone up generally all over the country. Mr. OSTERTAG. The costs are higher? Mr. WALLACE. Yes sir; by about 5 percent. UTILITY COSTS Mr. YATES. I notice that part of the additional utility cost is attributable to electronic computers. Presumably, electronic computers are useful and helpful in eliminating jobs, but I just wonder which is the greater savings to the Government? Mr. WALLACE. It would be hard to isolate that. We do know our electrical consumption is going up for air conditioning and computers. It is not broken down between the two, but the amount is going up gradually each year. Mr. YATES. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. YATES. I have been trying to find a comparative cost of your other objects under "Buildings and management. Is there one in this justification? TRAVEL COSTS On transportation of persons, you have an increase of $200,000. How does that compare with 1961? Mr. TURPIN. It was also $200,000 in 1961, and that information appears on page I-27 of the green sheets. Mr. YATES. How much money has been spent for travel under this appropriation so far this year? Mr. TURPIN. The actual for 1960 was $151,173. Mr. YATES. Was how much? $150,000? Mr. TURPIN. $151,173. Mr. YATES. And, what was your authorized appropriation for that year? Mr. TURPIN. The total travel limitation under "Operating expenses, public buildings," for 1960 was $350,000 and we actually incurred travel expenses of $296,141. Mr. YATES. For 1960? OBLIGATIONS UNDER OPERATING EXPENSES Mr. YATES. How much have you spent this year so far under this appropriation title? Do you know that figure as of a certain date! Mr. TURPIN. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but I do not have the figure broken down. I only have the total obligations under this appropriation, but I could supply that item for the record. Mr. YATES. All right; I would like to know, say, as of January 31 what you have spent so far under this appropriation. Mr. TURPIN. All right, sir. (The information requested follows:) Operating expenses, public buildings service cumulative obligations as of Jan. 31, 1961 BUILDINGS MANAGEMENT FUND Mr. YATES. Now, we go to the buildings management fund. Mr. YATES. Tell us about the operation of this fund and how it is working, and whether or not you have run into any difficulties with it. Mr. TURPIN. Mr. Chairman, as you know, this fund was authorized a number of years ago to finance the operations of our buildings. It is a revolving fund to cover the expenses for building operations. The costs are reimbursed to this fund either from "Operating Expenses, Public Building Service," for those building operations that we have financial responsibility for, or from other agencies where they have the financing responsibility. FINANCING SPACE EXPANSION Mr. YATES. Now, under item B this statement appears: "Provides for 38.2 million average square feet of space in 1962, compared to 37.4 million in 1961." Mr. TURPIN. Yes, sir. Mr. YATES. You indicated a few seconds ago that the amount of your leased space was going down. Mr. TURPIN. The amount of leased space to be financed from "Operating expenses, Public Buildings," does go down, but it is estimated that there will be an increase in the amount of leased space that we will operate. The latter is to be financed by other agencies who have funds in their budget for that purpose. Mr. YATES. I note here that provision is made under this appropriation for the operation and protection of 91.6 million average square feet of space in 1962 as compared to 89 million square feet of space in 1961 and 83.1 million in 1960. Mr. TURPIN. For Government-owned space, yes, sir. Mr. YATES. This is attributable to additional space to be serviced because of the construction of new buildings and a full year of maintenance and operating costs for the Kansas City record center which was transferred to GSA in October. This amount goes up constantly and will continue to go up, will it not? Mr. TURPIN. Yes, sir; that has been the experience. Mr. OSTERTAG. It is not quite clear to me just where the line is drawn as between what agencies are required to pay to GSA, what income there is to GSA from other agencies and what your responsibilities are budgetwise for the operation and maintenance of these public properties and buildings. Is there a special line of demarcation? Mr. TURPIN. Yes, sir. GSA GENERAL PROVISIONS Mr. THOMAS. Let me interrupt you and turn to the language in the general provisions. Mr. OSTERTAG. The general provisions of the law? Mr. THOMAS. Let us turn to it now at this point and put it in the record. (The matter referred to follows:) GENERAL PROVISIONS FOR GSA The appropriate appropriation or fund available to the General Services Administration shall be credited with (1) cost of operation, protection, maintenance, upkeep, repair, and improvement, included as part of rentals received from Government corporations pursuant to law (40 U.S.C. 129); (2) reimbursements for services performed in respect to bonds and other obligations under the jurisdiction of the General Services Administration, issued by public authorities, States, or other public bodies, and such services in respect to such bonds or obligations as the Administrator deems necessary and in the public interest may, upon the request and at the expense of the issuing agencies, be provided from the appropriate foregoing appropriation; and (3) appropriations or funds available to other agencies, and transferred to the General Services Administration, in connection with property transferred to the General Services Administration pursuant to the act of July 2, 1948 (50 U.C.S. 451ff), and such appropriations or funds may be so transferred, with the approval of the Bureau of the Budget. Funds available to the General Services Administration shall be available for the hire of passenger motor vehicles. [No part of any money appropriated by this or any other act for any agency of the executive branch of the Government shall be used during the current fiscal year for the purchase within the continental limits of the United States of any typewriting machnies except in accordance with regulations issued parsuant to the provisions of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949, as amended.] Not to exceed 2 per centum of any appropriation made available to the General Services Administration for the current fiscal year by this act may be transferred to any other such appropriation, but no such appropriation shai be increased thereby more than 2 per centum: Provided, That such transfers shall apply only to operating expenses, and shall not exceed in the aggregate the amount of $2 million. Appropriations available to any department or agency during the current fiscal year for necessary expenses, including maintenance or operating expenses, shall also be available for (a) reimbursement to the General Services Administration for those expenses of renovation and alteration of buildings and facilities which constitute public improvements, performed in accordance with the Public Buildings Act of 1959 (73 Stat. 479) or other applicable law, and (b) transfer or reimbursement to applicable appropriations to said Administration for rents and related expenses, not otherwise provided for, of providing, directly or indirectly, such suitable general purpose space as may be required by any suck department or agency, in the District of Columbia or elsewhere. [In disposing of surplus real estate and buildings a reasonable period of time shall be allowed for local governmental units to perfect a comprehensive and coordinated plan of use and procurement.] (Independent Offices Appropriation Act, 1961; Second Supplemental Appropriation Act, 1961.) EXPLANATION OF PROPOSED CHANGES IN LANGUAGE 1. The language in the third paragraph which prohibits purchase of typewriters except in accordance with regulations issued pursuant to the Federal Property Act of 1949, as amended, is recommended for deletion. This point is already amply covered in section 201 of the Federal Property Act itself. Although a provision restricting the maximum price payable for typewriter purchases has appeared in appropriation acts for many years, there have been several changes in the language of the restrictive provision itself, and in other legislation, with the result that the provision cited is now without practical effect. 2. The phraseology added to the penultimate paragraph proposes the legislative authorization necessary to implement the new policy applicable to financing additional leased space required to support expanding programs of other agencies and space reimbursable to GSA during 1961, which is discussed in the general statement under "Operating expenses, Public Buildings Service." Inasmuch as funds for these purposes are included in the 1962 estimates of the other agencies and are not included in GSA's budget, specific authorization is needed to effect the subsequent transfer of funds, as needed, to GSA. Funds so transferred will be merged with the applicable GSA appropriation. The words "or reimbursement" are applicable only to nonappropriated funds, such as trust accounts and corporate funds, which are not susceptible to appropriation transfers. The phrase "or indirectly" applicable to rents and related expenses incurred in providing the space, is intended to provide for those instances where, in the interest of effective space utilization, expansion space for agency X is provided in Government-owned space by moving agency Y out of Government-owned space into an equivalent amount of leased space to be financed by agency X. 3. Language in the last paragraph is deleted in its entirety because (1) it is not sufficiently definitive to avoid unjustifiable delays in disposal of surplus real estate and buildings, and (2) States, and in many instances political subdivisions thereof, including local governmental units such as are referred to in the deleted language, are already given preferential treatment in the acquisition of surplus real property under the provisions of existing law. For example: (a) Section 203 (k) of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949, as amended (40 U.S.C. 484 (k)), which provides that the Administrator of General Services may, in his discretion, assign to the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare for further transfer, at a public benent allowance of as much as 100 percent, surplus real property recommended by the Secretary as being needed for health or educational uses. (b) Section 13(g) of the Surplus Property Act of 1944, as amended (50 U.S.C. App. 1622(g)), which provides for the disposal of surplus property (exclusive of industrial property), without consideration which is determined by the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Agency to be suitable for use as a public airport. (c) Section 13(h) of the Surplus Property Act of 1944, as amended (50 U.S.C. App. 1622 (h)), which provides for the disposal of surplus real property which, in the determination of the Secretary of the Interior, is suitable and desirable for use as a public park or public recreational area at 50 percent of the fair value of the property, or for use as an historic monument without monetary consideration. (d) The act of May 19, 1948 (62 Stat. 240), which authorizes the Administrator of General Services to transfer to a State surplus real property for use for the conservation of wildlife, other than migratory birds, provided the Administrator determines that it is chiefly valuable for use for such purpose. Such transfers are made without monetary consideration. (e) Title 23, United States Code, sections 107 and 317, which authorize the disposal of real property or interests therein determined by the Secretary of Commerce to be reasonably necessary for the right-of-way of a Federal aid or other highway or as a source of material for the construction and maintenance of such highway adjacent to the real property. Such disposals are made without monetary consideration. (f) The act of August 26, 1935, as amended (40 U.S.C. 345b), which authorizes the disposal, without or with consideration, of interests in real property for the authorized widening of public highways, streets or alleys. On the basis of General Services Administration's experience prior to the enactment of the Independent Offices Appropriation Act, 1961, we believe that the provision of that act referred to above will tend to cause greater delay in the disposal of increasing numbers of properties resulting in additional cost to the Government for protection, maintenance, and administration of the properties. In addition, General Services Administration and other disposal agencies will incur increased administrative costs in carrying out the notification requirements inherent in the aforesaid provision of said act in many cases where it is obvious from the nature of the property or interest to be disposed of that local governmental units would have no interest in acquiring the property. For the foregoing reasons, deletion of the language incorporated in the Independent Offices Appropriation Act, 1961, is recommended. To remove any possibility that the provision in the 1961 act could be construed to be permanent legislation GSA presently plans to recommend its repeal. FINANCING SPACE EXPANSIONS Mr. THOMAS. During the current fiscal year the new space will be paid for out of the working fund of the agencies. In other words, it has been transferred from GSA to the agencies. The transfer does not make sense. Mr. OSTERTAG. It is rather difficult to locate responsibility. Here, for example, on page I-30 you have a list of schedule A which is GSA responsibility, totaling $165 million and income from other agencies amounts to $81,786,000. The total expenditure amounts to $248 million. Mr. TURPIN. Mr. Ostertag, I can give you, in general, what the breaking line is. Generally, special purpose type space is financed by these other agencies and would continue to be financed by those agencies. GSA has had the responsibility for financing general purpose space for existing Government programs. Beginning with fiscal year 1962, there is a proposal before the committee that provides that any space required by agencies because of |