of unemployment compensation as an insurance program to a welfare program, and I am trying to think of how much you take in, how much you spend, how does it meet the unemployment problem.

There are doubtless in my State and many States the situation where an industry becomes obsolescent and 26 weeks are not enough, particularly for a person that has had 2, or 3, or 20, or 30 years of employment. He should get a good deal more in the sense of the time of unemployment compensation so he can make his adjustment.

I think if we are going to recognize the aspect of people being out of employment for a long time and no longer members of the labor force, then we have to go over into the welfare programs. I certainly think we need more jobs and I think there is a responsibility under the Full Employment Act of 1946.

Mr. ALGER. You see the dilemma and some of us wonder just where

we are.

Mr. MEYNER. I don't go all the way on this proposition that you are going to suddenly change it from an insurance program to a welfare program.

Mr. ALGER. I certainly share your concern, Governor.

Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions of Governor Meyner?

Mr. CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, just one.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Curtis.

Mr. CURTIS. One detail, Governor.

I was wondering under the present New Jersey formula when you use wages, do you use the actual wage rather than take-home pay? I am just trying to figure that our.

Using it that way, of course, some benefit on a percentage basis is given to the head of a family, because actually his real wage is greater than his take-home pay but his take-home pay is greater than the single employee because he gets more deductions.

Mr. MEYNER. I know our minimum is $35 and I think our average payments run $32 or $33, but this is rather rugged where your average wage is in excess of $80 or $90.

Mr. CURTIS. Yes. One of the witnesses very properly brought to our attention that as far as the wage earner is concerned, he is using take-home pay after his Federal taxes are deducted and that is the meaningful figure to him, and there is quite a bit of difference between that and what his real wage amounts to, and we ought to be thinking in those terms.

That is the reason I asked the question.
Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Governor, you see what happens when you extend an invitation to be interrogated by this committee. We are always thirsty for information and knowledge.

Mr. MEYNER. I want to thank the chairman and the members of the committee for your kind consideration, and I must say that I have been the recipient of some very cogent questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Governor, we want to congratulate you on your very fine appearance both in your statement and in your responses to the questions that have been propounded. We had heard rumors to

the effect that you were a man possessed of ability. I think all of us will agree that you have demonstrated ability in this field.

We thank you, sir, for coming to the committee and enlightening us. There is just one thing I want to ask of you if you will do it. Last Monday we had a very glamorous appeal made to the committee by representatives of the Actors Equity Association, complaining because the States of New Jersey and New York could not get together in reciprocal agreement that will allow wages earned by actors in both States to be computed in one wage base for the purposes of unemployment compensation.

If you will get in touch with the Governor of the State of New York or vice versa and work out that matter, it will be of assistance, I am sure, to these many actors that play in New York and New Jersey. Mr. MEYNER. I should be delighted.

The CHAIRMAN. I was unaware of the fact that there was not such an agreement until I had a telegram asking for this appearance before the committee from Mr. Ralph Bellamy, I think, the president of the association. I did not know that the two States had not entered into such an agreement.

Mr. MEYNER. If it would be possible to have someone from the staff outline what the problem is, I will try to tend to that request. The CHAIRMAN. Fine.

Thank you again, Governor, and we do appreciate your appearance. (Letter from Secretary Mitchell referred to on pp. 1217-1219 follows:)

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR,
OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY,
Washington, April 10, 1959.

Hon. WILBUR D. MILLS,

Chairman, Committee on Ways and Means,
House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.

DEAR CONGRESSMAN MILLS: Certain members of the Ways and Means Committee, during the course of Under Secretary O'Connell's testimony on April 7, inquired of him concerning a statement I was reported to have made in October 1958.

The statement referred to by the two committee members was not taken from any prepared text. In substance, however, it is expressive of my judgment. The administration has examined and reexamined the whole Federal-State unemployment insurance system carefully over the last several months. Under Secretary O'Connell presented to the committee the administration's position, which I support. I hope that the record will be clear on this point.

I indicated in my letter of April 2, my desire to testify before the Ways and Means Committee, but it was not possible to arrange for my appearance because of the committee's tight schedule. At your request, I then arranged for the Under Secretary to present the administration's recommendations to the full committee. I believe there is nothing further that I could add to the Under Secretary's testimony which would assist the committee in its deliberations on this important subject.

Sincerely yours,

JAMES P. MITCHELL,
Secretary of Labor.

The CHAIRMAN. Before recognizing the next witness, I would like the chief counsel of the committee to read a letter that I have just received this morning.

Without objection, Mr. Irwin, read the letter, please.

Mr. LEO H. IRWIN (chief counsel). This letter is dated April 13, 1959, addressed to Chairman Mills:

DEAR MR. MILLS: This is to convey to you my deep regret at my inability to appear before the Ways and Means Committee on April 15 in support of H.R. 3547 and identical bills to establish Federal minimum benefit and duration standards for State unemployment compensation laws.

For more than a month I have had a throat infection that has not yielded to treatment. My doctors have issued urgent warnings against irritating it further and have insisted that I cancel all speeches and oral testimony scheduled for the immediate future.

You will have before you a statement setting forth my views on Federal standards, and Mr. James Carey, secretary-treasurer of the industrial union department of the AFL-CIO, will appear personally in my place.

I wish it were possible for me to present directly to you and the other members of the Ways and Means Committee my deep personal convictions concerning the imperative necessity for Federal standards both to alleviate the tragic hardships suffered by unemployed workers and their families and to strengthen the resistance of the economy to spiraling recession by sustaining consumer purchasing power when economic activity declines. Experience has demonstrated that these objectives will not be attained in the absence of Federal action.

In my judgment this is one of the most important, if not the most important domestic measure before the Congress this year. I should like to commend you and your committee for holding hearings on this matter, and I earnestly hope you will take the next essential step and report out a bill embodying the substance of H.R. 3547.

Again, my sincerest regrets that a throat infection prevents my personal appearence.

Sincerely yours,

WALTER P. REUTHER, President, International Union, UAW.

The CHAIRMAN. All of us had hoped that Mr. Reuther would appear before the committee. We regret that he is suffering from this throat infection and cannot be here. Those of us in Congress recognize what a handicap it is to have anything wrong with your throat. We hope that he will recover in the very near future from this ailment and that at some time in the future he may have an opportunity to appear before the committee.

Mr. MACHROWICZ. Mr. Chairman, before Mr. Carey begins his statement, since we have put a letter in the record from Mr. Reuther, I would like to ask the chairman, Do we not also have a letter from Secretary of Labor Mitchell?

As I remember, he was asked to come back to explain what was considered by some of us as the difference of positions taken by him at various times, and I think probably this would be a good place to put that in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. I will put it in the record at the proper time, but I do not want to delay Mr. Carey's appearance in that connection, unless the gentleman wants it done at this time. There is no objection to it being done.

Mr. MACHROWICZ. The only reason I want it in the record is because I think it is the most classic example of equivocation I have ever heard, and I think it should be in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it is better for us to proceed and we will have that at the proper time. I left the matter open the other day as to whether or not the Secretary would be called in connection with these hearings. It would have to be on Friday if he is to appear before the committee.

That can be disposed of at a later time. I hope we will not further delay Mr. Carey.

Mr. CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, I regret to say I wish the gentleman would withdraw his statement from the record. It is his view, which he is entitled to, or his interpretation of the Secretary of Labor's letter.

Mr. MACHROWICZ. I think it should be in the record. I do not withdraw my characterization of his letter, but I think it should be in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. The letter should be and it will appear in the record, unless there is some objection, before the hearings are concluded, because in it the Secretary is answering some questions that were raised during the appearance of the Under Secretary and the letter should be in the record.

Mr. CURTIS. I hate to see in the record at this point the characterization of what that letter amounts to because I think that would be unfair to do so. You have the privilege to do it, but I will request that you not do that.

Mr. MACHROWICZ. I could not conscientiously withdraw my characterization of the letter.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps, since the matter has been raised, it would be appropriate for it to be in the record, but I think it should be in the record just prior to the reading of the letter from Mr. Reuther, because Mr. Routher's letter should come immediately before Mr. Carey's appearance, since he is here in substitution for Mr. Reuther, so without objection, that letter will appear at that point in the record. Mr. CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, I just want to say this: I do certainly regret that Mr. Reuther cannot be present because many of us, knowing the great interest and part that he has taken in this particular kind of legislation, were looking forward to asking him questions.

We are very happy, of course, that Mr. Carey is here and we can ask him questions about it, but on such a serious matter as this with the prominence that Mr. Reuther has taken in this matter, it is regrettable that he cannot answer questions.

I wonder, since there may be questions that we would like to direct to Mr. Reuther, if his answers could later be supplied for the record. The CHAIRMAN. Let us see, since Mr. Carey is here in place of Mr. Reuther, and according to the letter representing him fully in the making of this statement, whether Mr. Reuther should be asked to supply answers to questions that perhaps Mr. Carey would not want to answer. I am certain, on the basis of his previous appearances before the committee, that Mr. Carey in his own right can ably demonstrate to this committee his capacity to answer most any question involving this subject that any of us may raise. If it gets to a question of some direct requests for Mr. Reuther's own view that Mr. Carey would rather relate to Mr. Reuther and Mr. Reuther answer himself, that of course would be a part of the record.

But so far as general knowledge on this subject is concerned, I think Mr. Carey can, as he has in the past, demonstrate to us that he is thoroughly acquainted with this subject. Mr. Carey is the secretarytreasurer of the American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations, and we are pleased to have you, Mr. Carey. We regret that Mr. Reuther could not be here, but certainly he has in my opinion selected a very able substitute for his appearance.

39678-5955

Mr. MASON. I will second that, Mr. Chairman; a very able substitute. The CHAIRMAN. You are very welcome. We appreciate having you, and you are recognized, sir.

STATEMENT OF JAMES B. CAREY, SECRETARY-TREASURER, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR AND CONGRESS OF INDUSTRIAL ORGANIZATIONS, INDUSTRIAL UNION DEPARTMENT; ACCOMPANIED BY LEONARD LESSER, DIRECTOR OF SOCIAL SECURITY, AFL-CIO

Mr. CAREY. Mr. Chairman and members of the Ways and Means Committee, I am James B. Carey, the president of the International Union of Electrical Workers. I am a vice president and member of the executive committee of the AFL-CIO, and I am secretarytreasurer of the industrial union department of the AFL-CIO.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you pardon me for a moment? I had in mind you were secretary-treasurer of the AFL-CIO. I am sorry I demoted you. I apologize.

Mr. CAREY. Mr. Chairman, I didn't want to take advantage of the illness of the secretary-treasurer of the AFL-CIO for he is in the hospital.

I am happy to appear again before the committee because Mr. Mason and I are old timers at this. This is before President Reuther came on the national scene. We were both here and addressing each other on subjects like this in 1935, so I exercise a measure of seniority over President Walter Reuther on this subject.

I appear today, as you know, in place of Walter Reuther, president of the industrial union department. The industrial union department, by the way, is made up of a majority of the members of the AFL-CIO. It is made up of 69 international unions with a membership of well over 7 million members.

With your permission I would like to introduce for the record this prepared statement by President Reuther.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, that will be placed in the record at this point.

(The document referred to follows:)

STATEMENT OF WALTER P. REUTHER, PRESIDENT, INDUSTRIAL UNION DEPARTMENT,

AFL-CIO

I am appearing in support of H.R. 3547 and similar bills which have been introduced in the House of Representatives by Congressmen Karsten, Machrowicz, and six other members of the Ways and Means Committee, along with more than 120 Members of the House. These bills are designed to establish higher standards of unemployment compensation in this country. They offer this committee and the Congress an opportunity to remove the barriers to State action and to make the unemployment compensation program one which will more adequately meet the needs of the unemployed workers and their families and the economic needs of the communities in which they reside.

The gross inadequacies of existing unemployment compensation systems are hurting America. Unemployed workers and their families are in trouble because we have failed to give them either the opportunity to work, or sufficient protection of their living standards to allow them to continue to live in decency and dignity until the opportunity to work is restored. Our American economy has been in trouble, it is still not out of trouble, and as sure as winter follows summer it will get into trouble again and again, until we learn to strengthen it more effectively by measures which must include the kind of proposal now before you.