STATEMENT OF LAVERN R. DILWEG, AS COUNSEL FOR THE NATIONAL HOME STUDY COUNCIL, ACCOMPANIED BY DR. J. S. NOFFSINGER, ALSO OF THE NATIONAL HOME STUDY COUNCIL

Mr. DILWEG. Mr. Chairman, just for the information of the committee, may I identify myself?

My name is La Vern R. Dilweg.

I was a Member of the Seventy-eighth Congress from Green Bay District, and am now a practicing lawyer with an office in Washington. My statement will be very brief because it pertains to but one small section in the bill passed by the House and now under consideration here, namely, H. R. 3749.

The National Home Study Council was organized through the efforts of the Carnegie Corporation of New York in 1926; that is, 19 years ago.

The primary purpose of the council is that it should be the inspecting and approving agency for the private correspondence school field, and be comparable in character within that field, to the North Central Association, the Southern Association, and so forth, within the collegiate and secondary fields of education.

Sound educational and business standards have been established. Schools have been inspected and approved on the basis of those standards, and State departments of public instruction in 42 States have recognized the work of the council by circulating to all of the vocational-guidance directors and high-school principals within their respective States, for their information and guidance, a list of all private correspondence schools and courses approved by the council.

As a matter of fact, certain State departments, after thorough investigation, have unqualifiedly certified to the Veterans' Administration those private correspondence schools which have been inspected and approved by the National Home Study Council.

We are interested in those amendments to Public Law 346 which relate to the including of correspondence schools and correspondence courses of instruction as found in H. R. 3749, not only in behalf of the high-grade approved schools within the field but also in behalf of several thousand men and women whose correspondence courses of instruction were interrupted when they were inducted into the armed forces of our country and who now desire to continue such correspondence courses for the purpose of upgrading and job improvement, without maintenance allowance, while being gainfully employed.

We are entirely in accord with everything contained in this bill relating to correspondence schools, with the exception of one paragraph only-namely, paragraph No. 12 of part VIII, chapter IV, entitled "Education of Veterans." This paragraph is very brief and reads as follows:

12. The Government shall pay for these correspondence courses quarterly as the course is completed.

We have three objections to this paragraph. They are:

1. The paragraph is ambiguous: We requested an unofficial interpretation of this paragraph from the Veterans' Administration and were advised that in their judgment the paragraph meant that the

Government would pay correspondence schools every 3 months for such lessons or units as had been delivered and serviced, and for such necessary books and supplies as had been delivered to the student during the preceding 3-month period. We are now advised that it was the intent of the authors of paragraph 12 that no tuition payment should be made on these courses, or other payment for necessary equipment or supplies therefor, until and unless full quarters of each course had been successfully completed by the student.

While both of those interprtations are reasonable from the standpoint of the language used, yet the ambiguity of the language requires that this paragraph should be changed.

Senator LUCAS. What do you suggest?

Mr. DILWEG. I suggest that it be deleted from the bill entirely. If you will permit me, I will get to that right now.

2. The paragraph is discriminatory: If the second interpretation above is given to paragraph 12, then the paragraph is discriminatory inasmuch as while correspondence schools are included in paragraph 11 together with all other kinds of schools mentioned therein, both public and private, and also since paragraph 5 specifically provides that

The Administrator shall pay to the educational or training institution, for each person enrolled in full time, part time, or correspondence course of education or training, the customary cost of tuition * * * and may pay for books, supplies, equipment, and other necessary expenses, exclusive of board, lodging, other living expenses, and travel

and so forth.

Therefore, to require that correspondence schools be compensated only upon the completion of full quarters of the course of instruction when such periods in certain cases may normally cover from 10 to 18 months of time, and not have similar requirements for other schools, is both discriminatory and unreasonable.

We doubt that any reputable correspondence school would sign such an unjust contract, and as a result this paragraph would therefore in reality deny the use of such courses of instruction to discharged

veterans.

3. The paragraph is unnecessary: Paragraph 5 of part VIII of this bill already provides that

The Administrator shall pay to the educational or training institution, for each person enrolled in full time, part time, or correspondence course of education or training, the customary cost of tuition

and so forth.

Furthermore, the Veterans' Administration now contracts with correspondence schools for courses of instruction under Public Law 16, whereby the various correspondence schools receive an enrollment fee of from $5 to $15-enough to cover the actual cost of setting up the enrollment on the books of the school-and then pays the school, either monthly or quarterly, a fixed sum for every lesson completed by the student and serviced by the school, plus the cost of books or equipment actually supplied. This method of payment is fair and equitable, and appears to be satisfactory, to everybody concerned.

For the above reasons we respectfully request that paragraph 12 be deleted from this bill.

That answers your question, Senator?

Senator LUCAS. Your position is that it is operating satisfactorily at the present time and does not need any clarification through an amendment?

Mr. DILWEG. Not through that particular amendment.

Senator LUCAS. Does it need any clarification?

Mr. DILWEG. Perhaps I have not made myself clear, Senator.

In the House bill and the bill that is now being considered by this committee, correspondence schools were included in the general statement of the institutions covered, which is really amendatory legislation to Public Law 346, and the need for this amendment grew out of an opinion that was rendered by the Veterans' Administration wherein they came to a decision after that law was passed, that correspondence schools were not to be included.

We had an opportunity to present our case before the House committee.

I am going to ask the chairman to permit me to insert that statement that was made before the committee in the House at an executive session, wherein we pointed out that the underlying principle of law 346 as far as education was that it was to be the veteran's choice.

In other words, if the veteran desired to enroll in a correspondence school, he should have that opportunity. If he desired to enroll in a university or any other school he should have that opportunity with the safeguards, of course, that Congress has placed around this bill in order to keep out fly-by-night schools.

And, of course, we are as much interested in that as Congress was at the time.

I also believe, Senator, that the State educational board passes upon the quality and qualifications of the school, and they should be qualified to do it and should do it on behalf of the veteran.

Senator LUCAS. Duty bound?

Mr. DILWEG. As far as I know they do.

Senator LUCAS. Do correspondence schools have to meet any State tests before they can operate?

Mr. DILWEG. In some States they do and in some they do not.

As I pointed out, the National Home Study Council, which has been in existence 19 years, is an organization that itself has placed certain standards in the correspondence school field in order to raise the type of training that is given through the reliable correspondence schools, and, I believe, you will find today that the number of schools that are members of this organization and that live up to the standards of the organization, enrolled approximately 75 percent of all students enrolled in correspondence schools in the country.

Senator LUCAS. I apologize for being late, Mr. Chairman.

Maybe some of my questions are repetitious, but I would like to explore for the sake of my own information this question I raised a moment ago with respect to basic law.

As I understand you and the Veterans' Administration, under the present law there are veterans today who are receiving correspondence courses throughout the country. Am I correct about that? Mr. DILWEG. That is correct.

Just a moment. I want to be sure I answer your question correct, Senator.

Bearing in mind that the Veterans' Administration rendered an opinion upon law 346 wherein they stated in substance that unless the correspondent school was a residence school, the student could not participate or enroll in the school, that has not permitted the veteran to enroll in correspondence school courses unless it was a residence school.

Senator LUCAS. What do you mean by "residence school"?

Mr. DILWEG. That the school has actually had its residence in the State and conducted classes with professors there, rather than strictly a correspondence school course.

That was the Veterans' Administration interpretation of the law.

In my own opinion, if I may express it, it is an erroneous conclusion, but the only way in which a correction can be made to permit correspondence schools to participate is through amendatory legisla

tion.

That amendment to the original law 346 is contained in the bill before you now, H. R. 3749, which passed the House.

In other words, the House has had full details, a complete statement upon which they could come to a conclusion that this was necessary, and I ask permission to insert that in the record.

Senator LUCAS. The bill now before us satisfies your position? Mr. DILWEG. That is correct, with the exception of the paragraph No. 12 of part VIII, chapter IV, which provides that payments are to be made quarterly.

There were two interpretations. The Veterans' Administration itself informed us that that meant that the Government would pay quarterly for lessons completed to that time.

And the interpretation by the authors of the amendment was that you would not be paid until the student has actually completed one quarter, one-half, three-quarters, or the full course.

Senator LUCAS. Which one do you prefer?

Mr. DILWEG. We ask that it be deleted as we say it is not necessary. There is a provision in the bill that provides a correspondence school will receive the tuition like any other school.

Senator LUCAS. Were you present yesterday when the gentleman representing the American Council of Education was here?

Mr. DILWEG. I was not, but I think I have some of the information before me.

Senator LUCAS. The chairman will correct me if I am wrong, but he made the statement that there were 1,000 schools that they recommended for a correspondence course. He made a distinction between a course in a school.

Mr. DILWEG. That is erroneous. There are not over 200 correspondence schools in the country today, and, as I told you before, in the neighborhood of forty-some schools represent the old-line schools who have given correspondence courses for many years who enroll over 75 percent of the students enrolled in the 200 correspondence courses in the country.

Senator LUCAS. As I recall, he stated that there are about 1,000 schools, correspondence schools, that they would recommend that the veteran attend, and then he would eliminate all the rest of them. What do you have to say about that?

Mr. DILWEG. When you say they would recommend, what do you mean?

Senator LUCAS. The gentleman who testified yesterday representing a group of higher educational institutions throughout the country, recommended to the committee that certain schools be designated by Congress, I take it, or instruction through the Veterans' Administration, where veterans might obtain this education, stating that there were only about 1,000 correspondence schools that they would recom mend, and another 1,000 that had been examined by this same group that they could not recommend.

Am I correct in that statement?

Mr. DILWEG. I don't believe you are, Senator.

Let me find out

Senator LUCAS. Let me find out from the committee if I am correct. Senator JOHNSON. I don't recall that it was 1,000 both ways, but it was some such number.

But he made the distinction between schools and courses.

Mr. DILWEG. I think the distinction he tried to make-and if I am incorrect, I want to be corrected-is that under the present law you could take a correspondence-school course if it was connected with a resident school.

By that he means a correspondence course given by, let us say, the University of Wisconsin, my State, or the university of your State. But he suggested that this committee give due consideration to taking out of the bill entirely any other correspondence school course on the ground that there were over 1,000 of those schools in the country, and it was impossible for the Veterans' Administration to find out which was a good school and which was not a good school. Senator JOHNSON. That is the way I understood it.

Mr. DILWEG. Of course, I must repeat again that the statement is

erroneous.

In the first place, there are not 1,000 correspondence schools in the country, but there are closer to 200.

Senator LUCAS. Why should there be such a discrepancy between men who are presumed to understand the educational systems of the country?

Mr. DILWEG. I can't understand that, unless the witness is biased. You gentlemen have had enough experience to size up the witnesses. Senator LUCAS. Where can we get that information?

Mr. DILWEG. I will be very glad to submit to this committee the names of every correspondence school in the country, add them up, and then place them against the gentleman's statement as made here yesterday.

Senator LUCAS. There ought to be some statistics some place, with all the bureaus we have here in Washington, D. C., where we can find out the number of correspondence schools around the country. Mr. DILWEG. I haven't access to the bureaus now.

Senator LUCAS. What bureau do you recommend to the committee. that we interrogate in order to ascertain the number?

Mr. DILWEG. I am sorry I can't give you that information, but I can assure you that I will place in the record, with the permission of the chairman, the names of each and every correspondence school in the country.

Senator LUCAS. I will tell you why I want it.