man who is drawing down salary from the Government, whether he be postmaster or other Federal employee, if he does not pay his honest and just debts, if it is possible for him to do so, unless there are some circumstances that make it impossible.

The CHAIRMAN. I can not understand the action of the Federal Power Commission in keeping Russell on the pay roll as long as they have if you have all the information you are offering to the committee What is the matter with it?

Mr. BONNER. I was just submitting it to explain the question that the Senator from Montana (Mr. Wheeler) asked me as to why I suggested that he be eliminated.

Senator WHEELER. I do not know why they should fire a man because of the fact that he has not paid his debts, because I do not think the Government has any right to make a man pay his debts regardless.

The CHAIRMAN. The Senator from Montana said he had been trying to get some postmasters up in his State removed because they did not pay their debts, as I understood him.

Senator WHEELER. No; I beg pardon, Mr. Chairman. I have not tried to get them removed. What I have taken up with the Post Office Department was the question to see if they could not get them to pay their debts, but I did not think they should remove them by reason of that situation. I have not asked for that action.

Senator DILL. I do not want to be understood as defending anybody for not paying his just debts. But I do not see why there should be a rule for firing a man from the Federal Power Commission because he does not pay his debts, when you leave so many other people in the Government service who do not pay their debts. If you are going to start firing people who do not pay their debts, let us apply it all the way along down the line, and not just fire a man who is fighting the big power companies.

Mr. BONNER. May I proceed?

Senator WHEELER. Yes; and no question was raised with reference to his not paying his debts until such time as he did take a position which was antagonistic to the power companies.

Mr. BONNER. Oh, no, sir. That had no connection to that matter at all. That was why I wanted to make this plain, because of the line of questioning the other day as to my attitude regarding his separation. I left the implication that there was some connection between it and the attitude he takes toward the power companies. That is not true at all.

Senator WHEELER. When did you start this investigation?
Mr. BONNER. When we began to get these complaints.

Senator WHEELER. When did you begin to get complaints from people in Montana whom he owed?

Mr. BONNER. Yes, sir; that was it. It began several months ago. Senator WHEELER. All right.

Mr. BONNER. May I proceed now, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Go ahead.

Mr. BONNER. In reply to charges that my official actions may be sympathetic to the private power interests, I want to say to this committee without any qualification whatever that I owe no obligations to anyone but my official superiors and I am bound by no prejudices

except to see that all parties get justice and fair dealing under the law. There is no better index to a man's character than his past reputation.. I invite the closest inspection of my record of many years in the public service and particularly that of the last seven years where I had a rather difficult assignment in the administration of the water-power work in California. Doubtless, most of you are aware that this has been a period of unparalleled development in that State until now practically a quarter of the country's hydroelectric energy is produced there. Doubtless, many of you are aware also that in California there exists the keenest rivalry between the municipal and private utilities. My duties brought me into extensive business relations with both, and I was privileged to have the confidence and respect not only of the utility company executives but also that of the officials of all the larger cities and municipal districts. If there is any doubt about the latter, I invite this committee to make the fullest inquiry on its own initiative. Along that line I should like to just read briefly from a few short let-ters which bear on that point. I may say that these letters came to me after my appointment as executive secretary and without any solicitation at all. This letter is from Mr. Albert Given, general manager-chief engineer of the Sacramento municipal utility district.

Senator WHEELER. I think you might just give us the names of the people and then put them in the record.

Mr. BONNER. I should like to read certain passages, if I may. The CHAIRMAN. You may do that, and then put the complete letters in the record.

Mr. BONNER. Mr. Givan says:

It was with a great deal of pleasure that I read in last night's paper of your appointment to succeed Mr. O. C. Merrill, secretary of the Federal Power Commission.

I think your appointment to the higher position has been due to the excellent work you have performed here on the Pacific coast, and I wish you much success in your new position.

We will be very sorry not to see you hereafter when it is necessary to confer with the Forest Service or the Federal Power Commission in San Francisco.

I have enjoyed the contact I have had with you and desire to thank you for the many courtesies that have been extended to me by yourself and your organization.

It is with regret that we see you leaving the Pacific coast but we are also glad to hear of your advancement in your chosen profession. With kindest personal regards, I wish to remain,

Yours very truly,

ALBERT GIVAN, General Manager-Chief Engineer.

Here is a letter from Mr. Scattergood, of the department of water and power, city of Los Angeles:

We are all pleased to note that your excellent services with the Forestry and Federal Power Commission are being recognized through your appointment to the position of executive secretary to the Federal Power Commission of Washington, D. C.

We wish to extend our hearty congratulations and to express the confidence that you will perform the duties of your office not only effectively but with a full degree of fairness to all who come before you and the commission.

Very truly yours,

97646-30-PT 2---2

E. F. SCATTERGOOD,
Chief Electrical Engineer.

Here is a telegram from Edward Hyatt, State engineer.

The CHAIRMAN. If it is along the same line, just put it in the record.

Mr. BONNER. I think that will be all right, Mr. Chairman:

FRANK E. BONNER.

SACRAMENTO, CALIF., June 12, 1929.

Secretary Power Commission, Washington, D. C.:]

Congratulations on your appointment and acceptance as secretary of Power Commission. Commission itself is also to be commended upon its wise choice in selecting you for important position. Harmonious cooperation between State of California and Federal Power Commission in the future is of the greatest importance to California, and we are all most happy over assurance of continuation of effective cooperation and cordial relationship assured by your appointment. Would appreciate wire advising when you will return to California as have several matters would like to see you on personally, if possible. Extend warmest personal regards and wishes for the future.

EDWARD HYATT, State Engineer. Here is another letter from Mr. S. B. Morris, chief engineer of the Pasadena water department.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a municipal water plant?
Mr. BONNER. Yes, sir. That is one of the largest in California.
The CHAIRMAN. Just put it in the record if it is along the same line.
Mr. BONNER. I should like to read this.

The CHAIRMAN. Why not put in if it is along the same line and let the committee read it?

Mr. BONNER. All right. It is as follows:

Mr. FRANK E. BONNER,

PASADENA, CALIF., June 13, 1929.

District Engineer United States Forest Service,

San Francisco, Calif.

DEAR MR. BONNER: I have just learned of your appointment as secretary of the Federal Power Commission. I wish to congratulate you and the Federal Power Commission on this new affiliation. In the years we have met on various engineering matters I have always found your work most thorough and conclusions well founded. The Federal Power Commission is indeed fortunate in your serving it in this important executive position.

I trust that we may get together from time to time officially and otherwise. Very cordially,

S. B. MORRIS, Chief Engineer Pasadena Water Department.

The last one is from Arthur P. Davis, chief engineer and general manager of the East Bay municipal utility district. I think Mr. Davis is a man who is probably well known to many members of this committee and whose impartial attitude on public questions can not be questioned:

Mr. F. E. BONNER,

OAKLAND, CALIF., May 20, 1929.

District Engineer United States Forestry Service,
San Francisco, Calif.

MY DEAR MR. BONNER: I have received your letter of May 15, 1929, and thank you very much for the kind and appreciative expressions which it conIt certainly is gratifying to have the commendation of one so capable and so thoroughly acquainted with our work.

veys.

I wish to acknowledge and emphasize the helpful cooperation which we have had from you and from your assistants in connection with the plans for the Mokelumne project. Your attitude has always been constructive and cooperative and has been very highly appreciated at all stages by all of those concerned. Please give my kindest regards to Mr. Kramer.

With kindest regards and best wishes, I remain,

ARTHUR P. DAVIS,

Chief Engineer and General Manager.

Senator DILL. Did you have anything to do with the granting of permits for municipal plants at Tacoma and Seattle, up in the forest area of Washington?

Mr. BONNER. No, sir. My district was restricted to the State of California.

Senator WHEELER. How long was Russell with the Interstate Commerce Commission?

Mr. BONNER. About four years, I think.

Senator WHEELER. When he came to the commission he had the recommendation, did he not, of Mr. Lewis, the chairman of the Interstate Commerce Commission?

Mr. BONNER. I think I have seen such letters in the files.

Senator WHEELER. He likewise had the recommendations of all of the members of the Supreme Court of Montana; I think all of them.

Mr. BONNER. For this position?

Senator WHEELER. No; for the position he held with the Interstate Commerce Commission.

Mr. BONNER. I think I have seen letters he filed, but whether they indorsed him for the attorney's position he took several years ago with the Interstate Commerce Commission or not I do not recall. Senator WHEELER. That is what I say.

Mr. BONNER. I do not think there was anything filed from the Montana people in regard to his position with the Federal Power Commission, except I believe there was one from Congressman Leavitt.

There is one other point, Mr. Chairman, and that is the testimony introduced here indicating that the Federal Power Commission had devoted only five and one-half hours a year to their formal meetings, and there was some implication carried with it that that was the extent of the service of the commissioners in handling this Federal Power Commission work.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it was later developed by query that the commissioners took work home and took work to their offices. I think perhaps Senator Wheeler brought that out.

Mr. BONNER. I should certainly like to correct that if there is any implication of that kind. This commission has been giving a lot of time to the work.

Senator WHEELER. There was not any questioning of that kind, or at least I did not gather the impression that the Federal Power Commission had only given five and one-half hours a year to this work. It was only in reference to the actual holding of official meetings. There was no question but what the commission had devoted some time besides that to these matters.

Mr. BONNER. We had one trip not long ago where the commission was out 48 hours, all three commissioners.

Senator WHEELER. There was no question about that.

Mr. BONNER. I want to say, too, that there has been the idea created that they allow the executive secretary full control of the Federal Power Commission's work. That is not true at all. I want to assure you that the commissioners are fully aware of what is going on all the time; in fact, I have been in almost daily contact with the acting chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is that?

Mr. BONNER. Doctor Wilbur, the Secretary of the Interior.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is the chairman of the Federal Power Commission now?

Mr. BONNER. There has been no chairman designated since Secretary Good died. Under the law the President designates the chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. You are only speaking from your own experience. You do not speak for Mr. Merrill's time?

Mr. BONNER. No; I do not know about any previous period. Senator DILL. The commission has been more active in the last month or two than it was previously, has it not?

Mr. BONNER. Well, I would not say that, Senator.

Senator WHEELER. They have never had any public hearings on any subject, except the Flathead power project, have they? Mr. BONNER. This present commission, do you mean?

Senator WHEELER. Yes.

Mr. BONNER. I think you are right on that.

Senator WHEELER. My recollection is that no Federal Power Commission had ever held a public hearing except on the Flathead matter. Mr. BONNER. Well, they have had hearings, but they did not extend for such a lengthy period.

Senator WHEELER. You have held public hearings?

Mr. BONNER. I was called back here four years ago on one hearing. That is all I know personally about.

Senator WHEELER. All that I know is what somebody has told me. Mr. BONNER. Oh, they have held hearings.

Senator WHEELER. I was told that they had never held an open public hearing.

Mr. BONNER. Oh, yes; they have.

Senator WHEELER. I did not know that.

Mr. BONNER. I should also like to have this point cleared up, that the present staff of the commission is relatively new. We had a complete turnover there the 1st of July. I came in new. Major Edgerton, who was the chief engineer, left and was succeeded by Colonel Tyler, who is a very eminent engineer of the Corps of Engineers of the Army, having directed Muscle Shoals and other large projects, but he has not had time to become thoroughly familiar with the business of the Federal Power Commission as yet. Also, the chief counsel left us shortly after July 1, and we had another chief counsel, who only remained a couple of months, and now that position is vacant. So we have been handicapped to some extent by that situation.

Senator WHEELER. Don't you feel that the commission ought to have its own engineers and its own accountants?

Mr. BONNER. As a headquarters staff; yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. How was that?

Mr. BONNER. For the work of the headquarters; yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. But you think the rest of the work could be turned over to the War Department or to the Agricultural Department or to the Interior Department?

Mr. BONNER. Well, it is not turned over. It is really a part of their own administrative duties. The Federal Power Commission is just heading that work up and coordinating a part of their duties.

Senator WHEELER. Candidly I can not see any use of creating a new Federal Power Commission if you are going to simply turn it over to these other departments; if the only purpose is going to be