their strength from within and build that strength, layer upon layer,

in the American way.

Our schools, on these terms, demand aggressive research and development, as do no other American institutions, because the end product is fundamental to all our institutions.

Senator MORSE (presiding). I want to thank you for this statement before I make a comment which I want you, in turn, to comment upon. The record should show that I apologize to you and your panelists for not being here until the middle of your testimony. Unfortunately I was scheduled to make a speech on foreign policy on the floor of the Senate this afternoon. This I delivered, and as soon as I had finished, I came to this meeting. As a result, I sit here a little cold, except for your testimony, with respect to knowledge of what the other panelists said here this afternoon.

However, I have been scanning the other statements with one eye as I listened with interest to the testimony you have presented.

I am sorry that I was not here to participate in the discussion earlier.

OPPOSITION TO FEDERAL EDUCATIONAL AID

As I scanned this testimony, and as I listened to you, I think our problem is in the grassroots of America, where there is still a surprising amount of opposition to Federal aid to education. I was in Hot Springs, Ark., last Thursday, and in Chicago last Saturday. I read in the papers between here and those points a considerable amount of adverse comment on Federal aid to education. These comments expressed, in my view, a head-in-the-sand attitude, when we consider what has occurred in many fields of knowledge since you and I were in grade school. Although I may be your senior by more than a little bit, I think you are still of my generation.

When I think of what we learned and needed to learn as in contrast to what boys of this generation, and girls, too, should learn and must learn if they are going to survive in this great contest between freedom and totalitarianism in their generation, I keep asking myself the questions: "What can we do to get the people of this country who are opposed to the Federal Government assuming its fair share of financial responsibility toward educating our young; what can we do to get them to see that 1963 is not 1906 or 1912, or 1923?" That was the bracket of years which covered my formal education from grade school through my baccalaureate degree. You can understand why I find it is so important to have men of your expertness come here this afternoon to say the things that you have said on this record.

I make these statements as a preface, because I need your help in getting into this record an evaluation of my observations even though they may seem to be somewhat in the form of rhetorical questions. Could you tell me, for the record, if I am wrong when I point out that the training which is now needed from grade school through high hool and through college, should be directed toward the development not of the specialist but of educated men and women? Should hot our education aim at producing men and women who will be trained and qualified to carry on their obligations to society? That 15, should it be an education which, politically would result in statesmanship, and economically would enable the individual to produce for

society to an optimum degree what his or her mental ability would make possible? Is not this better than to limit the individual producing under his potential capacity because he has not had the necessary training?

FEDERAL INTEREST IN TRAINING FOR NATIONAL NEEDS

Am I correct in my observation that the needs of the Nation for Federal programs of defense and space are such that no local school district, no State educational system is going to, nor should it be expected to, fulfill and pay for the cost of that Federal need?

Before you comment, let me clarify my thought further. You have spoken about space and you have testified in the last few minutes that no local school district, no State government really has any responsibility as far as their governmental jurisdiction is concerned, to maintain a program which will train and qualify educated citizens of this country to fulfill the needs of the Federal Government in respect to a space program during your lifetime.

Do you think I am wrong about that?

Mr. STRAUBEL. You are very right about that.

Senator MORSE. I wish we could get that idea across to your local school boards and our parent-teachers' associations. I was aghast to read that the parent-teachers' association down in Florida recently passed an anti-Federal-aid resolution except in terms of some little special bracket of it.

We cannot expect a local school board or a State adequately to finance the kind of technical training program that is going to be needed. We will require increasing thousands of our people to be trained if this Government of ours is going to be able to carry out its Federal responsibilities. The United States has a tremendous responsibility in the field, for example, of foreign policy. It has responsibilities in space communication, in defense needs, and in all the other scientific areas about which and in which fields the panel qualifies as expert witnesses.

Do you agree with me that some way, some how, we have to get the individual citizen at the grassroots level to realize that the Federal Government and only the Federal Government can be expected to do the financing for this phase of the training which has to start in the first grade? Am I right?

Dr. ZACHARIAS. Senator Morse, you are dead right. I think the various people would admit freely that they might not be competent in space sciences or in physics. They are not likely to agree, although I agree completely, they are not likely to agree that they are not competent to handle this in history, literature, the study of man, archaeology, and so on-music, the graphic arts. I believe, as you just said, I believe that the Federal Government has to pull the programs together, not only because of the financial side of it, but because you have to pull out of the universities and out of the schools enough people to make the programs big enough so that they are really telling programs.

Senator MORSE. Doctor Zacharias, you make me feel a little better. With this kind of expert testimony you are providing you will make it easier for me, when I plead this case, as I have been doing before

many audiences. There is a job of political education to do, you know. We must take these facts to the American people if we are going to get them to support us. I add a very, very effective propaganda job is being done against us.

You spoke of physics. We just do not know whether or not the little boy or girl in the first grade, has the potentiality of being a physicist, a chemist, a doctor, or a teacher. But we do know that if we do not start developing to the maximum extent his mental capacity, it can degenerate. I have heard many witnesses over the years, as I have presided over these hearings, that bring this fact out in one form or another, time and time again. Let us take a person of native high intelligence. If no training is given to develop that intelligence, by the time the youngster gets to be 18, 19, or 20 years old, it does not mean you can start building it successfully then. If he does not have grade school and high school training, to use a figure of speech-which is not scientific, I realize, but which nevertheless, illustrates the truth of it-by his failure to use, develop, and stimulate his cortex of great intellectual potentiality, out of unuse, it becomes dull and undeveloped. You do not have by the time that bright little potential at the age of 3, 4, 5, or 6, reaches 20-you do not have a very smart person, at least not as smart as the one which you could have had. I think that we are wasting potential brain power by the millions.

Yet we must somehow get across the fact that the Federal Government, without in any way being an educational dictator, or a dominant partner in developing the education system of the country, financially or in terms of curriculum can help to finance programs that are needed, and that it does have a responsibility to do so.

A statistic that was paraded through these hearings the other day 0 struck me, that I did some checking up on it and I found it in question. Nevertheless I want to present it to you gentlemen, so that You can tell me if you know anything about it, and if you do, whether it is reasonably accurate or not.

DISTRIBUTION OF TECHNICIANS

There could be some variation in the percentage to a minor degree. But the round number that was given us was that if you take the Skilled technicians in the fields of technology today in the United States and divide them up into two categories, one the percentage that is working in the field of the civilian economy, and the second the percentage working in the field of missiles, space, atomic energy, and other specialized military areas of work and occupation, you would find that about 75 percent of our technicians are devoting their time and ability to missiles and space and atomic energy and military services, and only 25 percent to the civilian economy.

Do any of you of your own personal knowledge know whether hat figure is reasonably accurate or subject to challenge?

Dr. ZACHARIAS. It is certainly on the right side. There is no ques

tion.

Dr. BOGGS. May I rise to a point of order? I am forced to ask for permission to leave because of my travel schedule. May I be excused? Senator MORSE. Please accept my apologies. I do not want to keep you. Please feel free to leave.

Dean, I want to thank you very much for helping us out this afternoon.

Dr. BOGGS. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Senator MORSE. What I wanted to get into our record through your expert testimony is, if the percentage is true today, with all else that you have alluded to in the testimony as to what the future holds for us in this area, and which for want of a better descriptive term I will say is the area calling for skilled and highly educated people to carry out great Federal programs, governmental programs of the future. are not we going to have to greatly increase the number of skilled technicians in the various fields of technology to keep pace with Russia and with other countries following a nationalistic course of action in the years immediately ahead? Am I right or wrong about that? Dr. ZACHARIAS. You are right about that, sir.

Senator MORSE. That is all I wanted to say by way of throwing out my thesis. If you have any comments you want to make by way of amplifying it or criticizing it, the record is yours.

ISSUE OF FEDERAL CONTROL

Mr. STRAUBEL. Mr. Chairman, we listened this morning to the report of the Chief State School Officers, where they had polled their membership and invariably, as they went down the line on the bill before you, they expressed negatives on Federal aid because it might interfere with the control, that there would be Federal control over the States.

Then we heard the Commissioner from New York, with a $2 billionplus enterprise, by far the largest in the country, I am sure, point out the many gaps in his school system and the teacher problem that he said keeps him awake nights. Now, if the largest that we have-I forget whether it was 3 or 4 million-4-plus million students, can't hack it, as we would say, then certainly Arkansas, represented by the president of that organization, and the other States, cannot come close.

Now, it seemed to me that as I sat back and added it up, they were giving the best argument for what Dr. Zacharias has called the massive effort in educational research and development. Because if these gaps and weaknesses exist, and no one has questioned them in our school system, and if, as you have indicated, there are going to be continual barriers to the Federal Government doing something about it, as the gentleman this morning would indicate, this, it seems to me, emphasizes the need for a far greater research and development effort on the premise, and you refer to that in your testimony, that the least. under these circumstances, that the Federal Government can do is to seek out the facts that try to find the shortcuts through research and development to fill the teacher shortages that everyone has mentioned, and then throw them at the States, take it or leave it. They do not have to accept it.

But I would think that through a real large research and development effort, as has been proved in other fields of endeavor-you ask what can be done about it. I think it is the only way to force the issue, where the facts just stack up against a State that is not doing a job, without telling them to do anything or controlling a thing.

I hate to see the research and development side of this go down on the Federal versus State control. Yet it is just one of the items along with a lot of others. It is far more important than that, because research and development leads the way, it is the explorer. I would hope it could be separated in the minds of the people who are talking about this control business.

Senator MORSE. I feel exactly the same way. I might say when the President first proposed the omnibus bill approach, I had some misgivings which I expressed to the White House. But as I have listened to the arguments for it, I decided that there is one thing we ought to be able to accomplish by these hearings on the total picture of our educational needs. Perhaps they will serve to bring to many Americans the lesson that we just cannot face this problem on the basis of what would be in the best selfish interest of each little community, school district or State. We must look at this as part of the whole. We all have a responsibility to look at this from the standpoint of the national interest. We can justify the bill on that basis without, as you point out, without in any way, jeopardizing the prerogatives of local control.

Well, I shall not say more. I wanted to give you a chance to say what you have and I thank you for it.

Our last witness is Dr. Joseph V. Totaro.

Dr. TOTARO. Thank you, Senator Morse. We are delighted you could get here and before I start to plow over the ground you have gone over so effectively, again, I would like to make one comment I think needs to be made.

Senator Randolph did an excellent job this morning and again this afternoon before you arrived and I want to acknowledge the manner in which he has handled our testimony and the testimony of our predecessors this morning.

Senator MORSE. I want the record to show my thanks to Senator Randolph. I could not be here this morning because of a meeting of our Foreign Relations Committee, where I had to be one of the main spokesmen on Latin American issues that were being raised at the meeting, because I am chairman of the Subcommittee on Latin America.

I appreciate what Senator Randolph did this morning and again this afternoon. I want this record to show that I know of no one more dedicated in the Senate to the issue of adequate legislation in the field of education than the Senator from West Virginia. You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF DR. JOSEPH V. TOTARO-Resumed

Dr. TOTARO. Thank you. It is encouraging to know that we have this caliber of gentleman working for us in the Senate.

Senator Randolph alluded to a few words but I would like to reemphasize. He mentioned truth, and spoke about changes. I think we need to be concerned about pursuing change through truth. This is really what we are talking about here in educational research and development. We are concerned with all of S. 580, but we came here to focus on title III and particularly that aspect which deals with cooperative research.