that has been very successful and is one of the modern day methods of management.

Senator MUNDT. I would like to hear from the Commissioner as to how long it takes before these lakes get contaminated with carp all over again.

INITIATION OF POISON USE

Mr. PAUTZKE. First the use of rotenone had started in about 1938. Your State, by the way, Senator Bible, also used rotenone considerably in Nevada.

Senator BIBLE. At Lake Mead?

Mr. PAUTZKE. No, in the use of the eradicating of undesirable fish and then coming back with useful species like trout.

Senator MUNDT. Would it work in a big lake like Lake Mead, Commissioner?

Mr. PAUTZKE. Yes. It is a case of how much money you want to put into it.

Let me give you a couple of minutes of background on it.

In the State of Washington they probably have rehabilitated or turned over some 36,000 acres of water, consisting of about 250 odd lakes, the biggest being, I think, 2,500 acres, the largest they have turned over. So you can see the cost. It takes about 3 pounds of rotenone per surface acre-foot and rotenone is 25 cents a pound, so it is about 75 cents per 1 acre-foot. Now this material takes about 6 weeks to dissipate. This rotenone dissipates as the result of sunlight. Now the materials when put into the lake sink at the rate of about 1 foot in 15 minutes, so you can figure how fast it goes down to the bottom. The fish that it kills is the result of suffocation. It tightens up on the blood vessels so that the blood does not go to the gills and as a result they suffocate. They are good to eat.

OTHER TYPES OF FISHCIDES

We now have more lethal types of fishcides that are being perfected which have a greater degree of killing power in a more dilute form, but they have a greater lasting effect. I believe, in some of the larger reservoirs, these will be available and should be used. The initial work is now being done in a number of larger reservoir areas and I think this information will be available in the not-too-distant future.

Senator MUNDT. How do these new fishcides compare costwise? Mr. PAUTZKE. Briefly, on a number of lakes that we did, it would cost around $30,000 to do, we will say, a lake with rotenone. Doing it with some of these types of chlorinated compounds, they will cost around $2,500, but they are tricky to use until the methods of application and the protection of people have been perfected. They are still on the shelf.

CARCASS DISPOSAL PROBLEM

Senator MUNDT. Do you have to accomany this with some kind of fish carcass disposal program?

Mr. PAUTZKE. Well, sir, if they are in a water reservoir, yes, or if there are a lot of people living around the lake, they generally take care of the fish.

Now on lakes containing carp, like one lake that we did, we felt that there was over 200 tons of carp killed in this 400-acre lake, and there was a disposal problem there.

Chairman HAYDEN. Is there no question about the fish themselves being available for food afterward?

Mr. PAUTZKE. When they first roll over and die they come to the surface and the people can come and pick them up and they are available as food. After that time, those fish are left in the lake and you must remember they act as a fertilizer and give a tremendous surge to the crop of fish which you plant in there.

IMPORTANCE OF 1962 FUNDS

Senator BIBLE. Mr. Chairman, I am wondering if any type of request was made for the inclusion of this item before the House committee? I realize you people probably make them, but was there any independent presentation made?

Mr. McBROOM. No, sir.

Senator BIBLE. I wonder if you could say why, in just a few words, why it is important, or why you would think it is important that it be included in this year's budget rather than the next one? That seems to be the only problem we have to resolve.

Mr. McBROOM. Sir, we are here to support the 1962 budget.

Senator BIBLE. I understand and I am not trying to embarrass you in any way.

Mr. McBROOM. Certainly, as we see it on the fishing program at Flaming Gorge, this could better be done in 1962 rather than 1963. Senator BIBLE. Even if it were made available in 1963 and if there are still enough insecticide companies in there, could you still buy it on July 1st to do the job?

Mr. McBROOM. We could not order the rotenone of course, until the appropriation was made. The funds would have to be available first. If the appropriations were completed and available by July 1, 1962, chances are we could get this much material available in about 2 months, which would take it up until September 1. Then you have just a month or a month and a half to get it applied.

Now this, of course, takes quite a few men to cover 501 miles of stream. You would have to get all of the men and equipment together that are necessary to distribute it, so it would be a pretty tight schedule. To be most effective the rotenone should be applied while the water is warm.

Senator BIBLE. It should be done in August and September of next year and if not done by that time, it is almost too late to be an effective program?

Mr. McBROOM. That is correct.

(The following statement was submitted:)

The magnitude of the overall program makes detailed advanced planning a must with the following items of urgent importance: (1) Such large quantities of fish toxicants must be ordered well in advance of actual starting date; (2) stations for toxicant distribution must be constructed throughout the entire stretch of streams to be treated; (3) the toxicants must be strategically stockpiled along the entire course of streams to be treated; (4) plans must be made between the Utah and Wyoming Game and Fish Departments as to personnel and vehicle assignments and coordination; (5) eradication must be done at minimum water levels and at maximum water temperatures.

SUCCESS OF HATCHERY PROGRAM

Senator DwORSHAK. Mr. Chairman, I have one question. Mr. Tunison, when we were discussing the Columbia River fish sanctuary program earlier in the hearing, I had intended to ask whether it is true about the report that no more fish hatcheries are being built. I think there are about 23 or 24 hatcheries that have been built under this program in the last decade, largely in the lower Columbia River Basin.

Has not that hatchery program been successful?

Mr. TUNISON. We like to think so, Senator, and we know very definitely that there are certain hatcheries that have been very outstanding. There is no question about that. Then there are others that we have our fingers crossed on as to whether or not the fish produced by those hatcheries actually contribute to the catch.

I think or I am sure that Director McKernan feels the present hatchery operation should be evaluated very carefully to determine their work in the overall program and for that reason there is, call it a moritorium, if you will, on hatchery construction right at this time.

Senator DwORSHAK. Of course, that was my objective about 3 years ago. We got Idaho to participate in this program and I was greatly encouraged by people in your agency in supervising the hatchery program to try to locate a hatchery in the Clearwater River or in the Middle Snake area so we could combat some of these adverse results from the fish migration upstream and downstream also.

You have not done much on that and you are certainly not going to penalize us because the hatcheries downstream may have questionable value?

Mr. TUNISON. No, not at all, Senator. The hatcheries certainly will play a part in this overall program and certainly in Idaho it would be one method, one part of the overall program. There might be spawning channels, for instance, and other methods, as Director McKernan mentioned, passing these fish up and down streams and over dams and certainly it will be included in that program.

Senator DwORSHAK. Then you are not going to terminate your interest in the hatcheries programs, generally?

Mr. TUNISON. Absolutely not.

BRUCES-EDDY DAM

Senator DwORSHAK. You are aware of the efforts that have been made for a few years to plan the construction work of the BrucesEddy Dam on the North Fork of the Clearwater River, and there is considerable opposition from the fish and wildlife interests contending that would destroy the fishery development on the North Fork of the Clearwater, which is quite important insofar as the steelheads are concerned. Now if some progress is made on this particular project I am sure that you will give us your cooperation in trying to determine whether a hatchery will overcome any adverse effects by the building of that multiple purpose project?

Mr. TUNISON. A hatchery or hatcheries would be considered as a part of the mitigation opportunity for that project.

Senator DwORSHAK. In other words, it might be possible and I would know whether you would say from a pathological standpoint. that the lower basin hatcheries might not prove entirely successful while the tributaries upstream hatcheries might solve the problem or help to solve the problem of fisheries propagation?

Mr. TUNISON. That is one of the aims I am sure would be included in this evaluation program, Senator.

Senator DwORSHAK. The fact that you have not even developed one hatchery up in the Idaho section of the Columbia Basin does not preclude the possibility of such a development in the future?

Mr. TUNISON. No, sir; not at all. There is that possibility.
Senator DwORSHAK. Thank you.

Chairman HAYDEN. If there are no more questions, I have some of my own to ask.

OPERATION OF NEW HATCHERIES

There is an increase of $460,000 for the operation of new hatcheries and new facilities at existing hatcheries. Would you please furnish for the record the locations of the new hatcheries proposed? Mr. TUNISON. The location of the new hatcheries; yes, sir. (The information referred to follows:)

BUREAU OF SPORT FISHERIES AND WILDLIFE

STATEMENT CONCERNING OPERATION OF NEW NATIONAL FISH HATCHERIES

The chart, "Operation of New Hatcheries and New Facilities Being Constructed at Existing Hatcheries," of the justifications for appropriations, fiscal year ending June 30, 1962, contains 14 hatcheries. Of these, six are new hatcheries, as follows: Willow Beach, Ariz.; Miles City, Mont.; Edenton, N.C.; Pis gah Forest No. 2, N.C.; Garrison Dam, N. Dak. ; and Gavins Point, S. Dak. It is estimated that $286,810, of the total of $460,000, will be required for operation of these hatcheries.

SPRINGVILLE, UTAH, FIELD STATION

Chairman HAYDEN. In your justifications for extension and training, I see that $9,200 which was available last year for a field station at Springville, Utah, is not requested this year. Has the work of this station been completed or transferred elsewhere?

Mr. TUNISON. I am surprised. I thought that was in the record, Senator. Just a minute.

You are right. The headquarters has been changed.

Chairman HAYDEN. Where to?

Mr. TUNISON. That work was shifted to the Albuquerque office.

RESERVATION FISHING MANAGEMENT PROJECT

Chairman HAYDEN. Last year this committee added $25,000 for the establishment of a fishery management project to assist the tribes in the development of fishery resources of the Navajo, Hopi, Fort Apache, and Zuni Indian Reservations.

Please explain what you have done on this project?

Mr. TUNISON. We have staffed two headquarters out of Albuquerque out of those funds, Senator, one at Springerville, and they are handling the Fort Apache Reservation, and that is the one that we love to talk about. It has been such a wonderful deal for the Indian tribes there and particularly for the sportsmen. It has opened

up new areas for fishing. The other headquarters has been set up at Gallup, N. Mex.

That is for the Navajo, Hopi, and Zuni. We have agreements as of today with 14 tribes to handle their fishery management work and nearly all of those are in the Southwest.

Chairman HAYDEN. What is the cost of the program?

Mr. TUNISON. We are now spending about $60,000 on the program for the Indian reservations.

NUTRIA CONTROL WORK

Chairman HAYDEN. Senators Ellender and Long have told me that the Fish and Wild Life Service expects to propose funds in the fiscal 1963 budget for nutria control work, and for organized cooperative control work in Louisiana and Texas.

Is it still the intention of the Fish and Wildlife Service to do this? If so, how much is it expected to require?

Mr. PARKER. I might answer that, Senator. This problem of nutria has come to the fore again in the last few years, following the hurricanes in the gulf. These animals were imported into the country from South America and escaped into the wild.

I guess some of them were held in captivity for fur purposes, but the people became discouraged and turned them loose. The nutria has spread along the gulf in western Louisiana and eastern Texas until it now covers an area of some 50 to 75 lineal miles. Very serious damage is done in the sugarcanefields and we also have trouble with it in the ricefields, and duck marshes. It feeds on all kinds of vegetation.

The State of Texas itself is carrying out some research work to determine control methods.

A number of years ago we had a man there studying its life history, and to learn a little bit more about this animal, but other problems became more serious and we transferred the man to another location.

Now, as I indicated, the problem has become acute again. There was a meeting down there last January during which time the State of Texas agreed to put manpower onto it.

The Louisiana University has agreed to furnish manpower for the investigation of the diseases of the animal, and we plan to put some research work on it, as well as doing some control.

There is nothing in this budget to cover it, but we plan to move ahead as soon as funding permits.

Chairman HAYDEN. On the control?

Mr. PARKER. That is right; and research.

COST OF STATE COORDINATION

Senator HAYDEN. What would it cost?

Mr. PARKER. It was planned that we would coordinate the research work, as was indicated would be done by the Fish and Game Department of Texas and the University of Louisiana. We would also employ two field research men and while they were attempting to work new control procedures we would need five additional control agents in the field. Actually, the only method that really works at the present