his area of Virginia can be transferred to Washington and that we can move forward with not only the community-vocational college but also with the 4-year arts and sciences college.

Thank you very much.

Mr. McKEE. If we can be of any further help, please call us.
Mr. DOWDY. We appreciate your coming.

Now we have Dr. Muirhead of the Office of Education, Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF PETER MUIRHEAD, ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER AND DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF HIGHER EDUCATION, OFFICE OF EDUCATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND WELFARE; ACCOMPANIED BY JEREMY BLANCHET

Dr. MUIRHEAD. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Chairman and Mr. Nelsen, I do want to thank you for this opportunity to be here today to respond to questions concerning the bill before you, the need for this legislation as I am sure we all agree, it is quite compelling.

I regret that I was not in Washington to appear in person at your last meeting on September 12 when you conducted a hearing on this bill. I did submit a statement at that time, and since that time we have been in communication with your staff, and in your letter, Mr. Chairman, you suggested that, perhaps, it might be helpful if I responded to some questions that the statement which I did submit generated.

First of all, the question has been raised as to the new provision in this bill or the provision in this bill that provides for a community and vocational college.

It seems to me that the addition of the word "vocational" does not suggest a mission for this college different from that proposed by the President's Committee on Public Higher Education in the District. The change merely states more explicitly the views of that Committee, that this college should put within reach of all high school graduates an opportunity for technical and vocational training as well as the general education leading both to greater personal and civic effectiveness and further study.

In this connection I should note that the current version of the comparable Senate bill, S. 293, appears to define the term "community and vocational college" in a way consistent with the requirements for eligibility of both the Higher Education Facilities Act of 1963 and the Vocational Education Act of 1963.

A single institution under those acts may benefit provided that the programs offered by it are in keeping with the laws and regulations governing these programs.

It would seem to me that it might be helpful for the committee if I were to present for the record at this time a tabulation of the various kinds of Federal assistance available to higher education in the District, and some information concerning the estimated allocations to the District of the funds which have been requested from the Congress this year, and, with your permission, sir, I should like to submit this for the record.

Mr. DOWDY. It will be received for the record. (The document referred to follows:)

Training, research, and study grants (special foreign

1,035, 000|

Agricultural Trade Development and Assistance | Institutions.
Act, Public Law 83-480.

Dr. MUIRHEAD. Another provision in the bill before the committee states that both colleges shall be located on the same campus, and I should like to respond to that, if I may. The committee, I am sure, is already familiar with the passage from the report of the President's Committee which says this on that particular point:

The committee strongly urges that each of the two institutions it has recommended, the community college, the college of arts and sciences, should have its own faculty, administrative staff and physical plant. While there would be advantages in locating the two institutions reasonably close to each other in order that certain facilities such as libraries could be utilized in common, the administrative union of the two facilities into a single institution would, in the opinion of the committee, seriously compromise one or the other or, perhaps, even both.

I think it is fair also to point out that the question of the relative autonomy of the community and vocational college could affect its eligibility for Federal assistance because the language of the Higher Educational Facilities Act states that if a branch of an institution of higher education offering 4 or more years of higher education is located in a community it must be located in a community different from that in which its parent institution is located. In other words, the act provides that in order for a community college to be supported under the Higher Education Facilities Act it must have its own autonomy or if it is a branch of an institution it should be located in a different community.

You were kind enough to ask for my response to the question of tuition and fees. It seems to me that the statement which I did prepare for the committee, the report of the President's Committee, clearly underscores that the tuition and fees charged at either the community college or the 4-year college should be modest and nominal at best, and I was quite impressed this morning, as I am sure you were, by the report from Mr. McKee concerning the rather nominal tuition charged in the community college which he heads.

I would be pleased to respond to other questions if the committee so desires.

Mr. DOWDY. You were not here the other day?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. I was not here.

Mr. DOWDY. There was this question of the fees or tuition which did come up the other day. I think it is the impression of the committee, or at least the members of the committee thought, that a small fee would be better than no fee, and that it should not be large. I think this $135 is a pretty good thing to shoot at so that it won't be too large, and anyone can go if he wishes; whereas people won't put any value on it at all if it won't cost anything. That is one of the troubles.

Dr. MUIRHEAD. Yes.

Mr. Dowdy. You mentioned the President's Committee's report about the fees, and I imagine that $135 would be in line with it. Dr. MUIRHEAD. Yes, it would.

Mr. Dowdy. But there is another thing I noticed in this report, which is printed in the Senate committee hearings, and I do not know that I understand it exactly. It is on page 52, where reference is made to a noncompetitive scholarship program to be provided for students in these areas. I imagine it covers everything. What exactly would be meant by a noncompetitive scholarship program, so that everybody would be eligible for it?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. Well, in the Senate report there is some discussion of a noncompetitive scholarship program which has as its principal aim making it possible for young people in the District who find it necessary to attend other colleges and university offering programs that the 4-year college might not offer, to do so with public support, and to do so with what is referred to here as a noncompetitive scholarship. In other words, the general aim being just as the chairman has stated a moment ago, that we do everything possible to provide higher education opportunities to these young people, and that we do not let the finances stand in the way of having them get the higher education.

Mr. Dowdy. The report I am talking about is the one from the Committee on Public Higher Education in the District of Columbia. The committee was created by President Kennedy in September 1963, and its report was sent to the President in June of 1964. That is the one I am talking about.

Now, in connection with this noncompetitive scholarship program, there is also a recommendation that the student be paid to go to school; in other words, give him a grant to go to school. That is going even further than making a free school for him, is it not?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. As I understand the recommendation, it includes a grant to the institution, the grant to the institution being made on the basis that the payment of his tuition does not necessarily cover the cost of instruction at that institution, and that the institution should be reimbursed hopefully to the level of the cost of his instruction through a grant to the institution and a tuition payment to the student by way of a scholarship.

Mr. DOWDY. It says a student should receive a grant in such a manner as is required to enable him to attend the institution. Dr. MUIRHEAD. Yes.

Mr. DowDY. That would be any institution anywhere he chose. Dr. MUIRHEAD. Yes. And, as you undoubtedly know, Mr. Chairman, this was suggested as rather an interim recommendation until such time as the program for the 4-year college was in place, and it will take some time, of course, for that program to take full effect, and this recommendation would make it possible for high school graduates in the District to go to 4-year institutions in the interim period prior to the establishment of a 4-year college here and to do so by way of a scholarship program.

Mr. DowDY. I believe your office, the Office of Education, does have jurisdiction over Howard University, and I think it would be helpful to us to have a fairly complete background of information about the curriculum there, its staff, its enrollment, the cost of its operation and its present physical plant, and matters of that kind as a matter of comparison.

Can you get that for us?

Dr. MUIRHEAD. We would be pleased to provide that for the record, Mr. Chairman. (See appendix, pp. 166-210.)

Mr. DOWDY. Last week I sent a letter over asking for that information. We will hold the record open until Friday to receive it.

We asked you for the square-foot cost per student that you could recommend, and the estimated construction program to take care of 2,500 students, the operating costs and other questions.

Have you been able to get that information for us?