partment of the Interior and the Governor of the Virgin Islands, we came to this conclusion which I read in the letter.

I confirmed that in that letter to Mr. Strand, of the Interior Department, and their representative telephoned me last week to say that they did agree with us on this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. They did agree?

Dr. CLARKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. This bill was introduced as the result of letters from Mr. Morse, of the Department, in February?

Dr. CLARKSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Heimburger, have you checked that?

Mr. HEIMBURGER. I talked yesterday by telephone to Mr. William A. Arnold, and he was quite familiar with this bill. He told me that the Department is not opposed to the bill at the present time.

The reason for the change in the Department's attitude apparently was the letter referred to by Dr. Clarkson in which a procedure for handling particularly the importation of poultry was suggested and agreed upon. The poultry did not have to go through quarantine and that sort of procedure, and on that basis Mr. Arnold told me the Department of the Interior is in accord with the provisions of the bill. The CHAIRMAN. How do you think the bill can adversely affect the economy of the Virgin Islands?

Mr. SAYLOR. They cannot raise enough cattle there to take care of their own needs. It is too expensive to bring them over from the States, but it is not difficult to bring them to those adjoining islands which you can see.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought this bill permitted them to come from the British Virgin Islands?

Mr. SAYLOR. Only from the British Virgin Islands.

The CHAIRMAN. It doesn't make it wide open, as you suggested a moment ago, but it opens it for the British Virgin Islands. Is that right, Dr. Clarkson?

Dr. CLARKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SAYLOR. They have always brought them in, some from the British Virgin Islands and some from the French islands.

The CHAIRMAN. They can do it legally; can they not?

Mr. SAYLOR. Legally or not, I don't know. You will cut off a material source of supply of meat to the islands.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps the problem is in the enforcement of the act.

Dr. CLARKSON. Under the present legislation the amendment which was in the Virgin Islands Organic Act of last year, cattle may come in from a tick-infested area, and that means any area, into the Virgin Islands without any specification as to purpose.

Under the regulations which we drew, and under that act, we limited it to the British Virgin Islands and limited it to slaughter only, which would be the limitation by law if S. 1166 is passed.

The concern in the Department was that having passed the legisla tion with no limitation we were put in an untenable position in limit ing this administratively. We felt the Congress ought to review the authorizing legislation.

The representations which have been made to us from the islands and from the Department of the Interior have been for the need of

slaughtered cattle and slaughtered poultry from the British Virgin Islands.

The CHAIRMAN. Would we be subjected to any criticism by the other areas if we let the bar down only as to the British Virgin Islands?

Mr. SAYLOR. I have no objection to limiting it to bringing into the Virgin Islands. I do not want to appear before this committee and have anyone think for a moment that I am here trying to advocate that the Virgin Islands be used as a loophole to bring any tick-infested cattle or cattle bearing any other disease into the United States. The CHAIRMAN. I realize that.

Mr. SAYLOR. The thing I am interested in doing is seeing to it that the other islands down there be treated equally.

I have talked to the good doctor about this. I have objected to the regulations which they adopted last year limiting it only to the British Islands.

The CHAIRMAN. You want them to come in from all islands on the same basis?

Mr. SAYLOR. If they can come in from slaughter in that immediate vicinity. That is all I am interested in.

I would say this: if anyone would try to use the Virgin Islands to slaughter cattle and then bring them into the United States contrary to any rule or regulation I would be the first one to come before your committee and ask you to change the law so that that not be allowed. Mr. POAGE. There is no law which prevents you from bringing it in after it is legally handled there.

Dr. CLARKSON. It is an interstate movement. We do have restrictions on importations of live cattle because of the ticks in the British

area.

Mr. POAGE. But there is nothing in the world to keep them from slaughtering these cattle and bringing the hides or anything else into the United States, is there?

Dr. CLARKSON. No, sir.

Mr. POAGE. You presumably could carry foot-and-mouth disease. Is that right?

Dr. CLARKSON. If they had been exposed to it.

Mr. POAGE. Consequently there is no way of stopping this movement into the United States unless you stop it somewhere either before it gets into the Virgin Islands or perhaps we ought to answer this thing by putting a quarantine on against the Virgin Islands as to movement into the United States or Puerto Rico. Maybe we ought to quarantine the Virgin Islands and let nothing out.

Mr. KING. Is there such a movement of meat from the Virgin Islands into the United States?

Mr. POAGE. Hides come into the United States, do they not?
Dr. CLARKSON. I cannot answer whether or not they do.

Mr. POAGE. I know of no other place they could go. What would you do with the hides if you had them in the Virgin Islands? You cannot make leather out of them there?

Mr. KING. It would seem illogical that any of the meat got here. Mr. POAGE. I didn't suggest meat, but I said hides. Hides will move foot-and-mouth disease as well as the meat. Hides are coming into the United States, and we had better stop that.

1

Mr. SAYLOR. Mr. Poage, I would be only too happy to agree to any quarantine or anything else coming in.

Mr. POAGE. Why not draw the line. Instead of drawing the line around the Virgin Islands this way draw it around the islands the other way and keep the Virgin Islands from moving anything north of the United States and west of Puerto Rico.

Mr. SAYLOR. I would have no objection to that, whatsoever.

Mr. POAGE. Let the Virgin Islands become a pesthouse; let them have foot-and-mouth disease; let them have ticks and all those things they want.

Mr. SAYLOR. Mr. Poage, they have a very strange situation down there.

Mr. POAGE. I am not a man to say that they should not have them if they want them.

Mr. SAYLOR. There is a very strange situation which exists down there with regard to ticks that I have been referring to, where tick infested cattle, when placed on one of these islands, for some unknown reason, the ticks disappear. I do not know what it is on the island. The people down there have been unable to explain it to me, as to what caused it, and the Department of Agriculture has not been able to tell me what causes it.

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt to ask Dr. Clarkson one question: Why is it that you feel that this act is necessary, or even desirable? Dr. CLARKSON. We agree that the Virgin Islands need the food supply which comes from the British Virgin Islands. There is a matter, as Congressman Saylor has mentioned, of close geographical relationships, and traditional trade between these closely situated islands.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; then, why did you select the British Virgin Islands, and exclude the other?

Dr. CLARKSON. In the first place, because the representations were made that the food supply does come from the British Virgin Islands. They are the ones which are located closer to them.

The British Virgin Islands have a closer supervision over their livestock, and their needs of livestock, than do many of the other islands. So, there were, then, two reasons: One, that there seemed to be no necessity for expanding it, and secondly, you add other hazards by expanding it.

The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand that we will still attempt to enforce our own laws, and to determine ourselves if the cattle are free from disease and ticks? We will not leave that decision entirely to the British, will we?

Dr. CLARKSON. Oh, absolutely.

Mr. SAYLOR. I would have no objection to that.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you say to that, Mr. Saylor?

Mr. SAYLOR. I have absolutely no objection to that, Mr. Cooley. I have no objection to the Department of Agriculture being the one to determine what cattle are, or are not infected.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me size up and wind up what you are saying: What I understand you have said is that you are objecting to the act we have here, not because we permit them to come in from the British Virgin Islands, but because we have selected the British Virgin Islands to the exclusion of the other areas; is that it?

Mr. SAYLOR. That is right-the other islands in the immediate area. The CHAIRMAN. As I understand it, Dr. Clarkson said that the other islands were at remote distances, and that the British Virgin Islands were nearby, and that to an extent it would increase further the risk and hazards involved.

Is that the way to sum it up, Doctor?

Dr. CLARKSON. Yes, sir. The real benefit comes from the trade with the British Virgin Islands..

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Mr. SAYLOR. I would say this to you, Mr. Chairman:

Probably the majority of it does, but a great deal of it could also come from the French islands down there, and has in the past.

The CHAIRMAN. How far are the French islands from the Virgin Islands?

Mr. SAYLOR. About twice as far as the British islands.

Some of the farthest British islands are as close as the closest French islands.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether or not the people in the Virgin Islands want what you are suggesting, and whether they want to bring them in from the French islands, or other places?

Mr. SAYLOR. The testimony which was offered before our committee was that they requested it.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hope?

Mr. HOPE. Do you have any information upon which you could base a belief that the British Virgin Islands could furnish a sufficient supply of fresh beef or live cattle to the American Virgin Islands?

I appreciate your interest in seeing that the Virgin Islands do have an opportunity to secure this food supply, but if it can be secured from the British Virgin Islands, where conditions, according to the testimony, are better than they are in the French Virgin Islands, and other islands in that area, and if the British Virgin Islands can furnish an ample supply, why do you object to limiting it to the British Virgin Islands?

Mr. SAYLOR. I do not, Mr. Hope, want to tell you that. I tell you very frankly that I do not know whether the British can supply all of it. The population of the Virgin Islands is increasing rapidly and I doubt very seriously whether within the foreseeable future the British Virgin Islands or the French Virgin Islands and anyone else will be able to supply all of the needs of the people who are on the Virgin Islands.

It would be necessary to import some from Puerto Rico and from the States.

Mr. WATTS. Would the gentleman yield for one question?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Watts.

Mr. WATTS. As I understood Dr. Clarkson, he said this legislation was merely permissive; is that right?

Dr. CLARKSON. Yes, sir; it would be insofar as it would be more restrictive than the present legislation which was passed in the Virgin Islands Organic Act of last year.

Mr. WATTS. If it is permissive, what would be wrong with amending the act to provide that cattle could come in from any of the Virgin Islands, providing they cleaned themselves up along with the British.

You say it is permissive, and then we could stop the importation into the British Virgin Islands, in the event they wanted to bring cattle from Mexico into the British Virgin Islands and, in turn, into the American Virgin Islands, and the hides could be handled in the same way.

If it is permissive, as I thought you indicated, you certainly could amend the act to include all of the Virgin Islands, and set a criteria that those islands have to meet before any of them would be able to ship in; is that correct?

Dr. CLARKSON. This provision of the act is a permissive one which is an exception to the broad declaration in the act that no cattle coming from any tick-infested area could come into the United States.

In our view, by increasing the area involved, it increases considerably the administrative difficulty of determining whether or not the cattle are in fact safe for entry, but coming from this immediate area, we have the area which is necessary to the Virgin Islands. It is one which can be judged and one which can be handled with relative ease, but aš soon as that area is expanded, it adds immensly to the administrative problem of determining the trade, the restrictions, and the characteristics of those other areas, and without any advantage that has been pointed out to us.

Mr. WATTS. In the event the French should adopt more stringent regulations on their cattle, would there be any objection then to the French shipping their cattle into the United States Virgin Islands? Dr. CLARKSON. There is, of course, that possibility, but just by tradition, they normally do not.

Mr. WATTS. You said it is permissive, as to whether you let them come in. Why could you not use that permissive phase to require them to do that if they ship in there?

Dr. CLARKSON. Obviously, those things can be done, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. WATTS. Since there is a possibility of cattle coming from Mexico into the British Virgin Islands, and then in turn into the American Virgin Islands, and the hides coming here, would there be anything wrong with putting a further amendment into the bill to state those cattle imported shall be for domestic use only in that particular phase there?

Dr. CLARKSON. Well, it says in this amendment "just for slaughter." Mr. WATTS. However, that does not prohibit the Mexican cattle, or hides, maybe, from hoof-and-mouth disease area from eventually getting into the United States.

Mr. SAYLOR. I would have no objection to them saying "for domestic use only."

The CHAIRMAN. What you are suggesting, Mr. Watts, is the elimination from the proposed amendment of the words "from the British Virgin Islands," and then that would permit them to come in from the other areas?

Mr. WATTS. That is right; he says it is permissive, as to whether to let them come in or not, and he could use that permissive power to make the other islands conform to the same standards of the British Virgin Islands.