Senator GORE. Senator Watkins?

Senator WATKINS. I will wait until Senator Johnson has made his statement. He is spearheading the drive.

STATEMENT OF HON. ED JOHNSON, GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF COLORADO

Governor JOHNSON. We are very grateful to this committee for giving us an opportunity to be heard. This is somewhat in the nature of an appeal from the Bureau of Public Roads decision.

The State of Colorado, in December of 1954, Governor Thornton, on behalf of the State of Colorado, appealed to the Bureau of Public Roads and the Commerce Department to have about approximately 500 miles of interstate highway connecting Salt Lake City and Denver added to the Interstate Highway System.

Mr. duPont, as Assistant to the Secretary of Commerce, turned that down. So we are here now appealing to this committee because we realize the Congress is the proper policymaking power in this Government of ours and we are appealing for assistance from the Congress of the United States.

I think in order to get it in retrospect, there are two sections of the law that ought to be made a part of this record in the very beginning. It is Public Law 146, 78th Congress, chapter 236, section 6. It reads as follows:

The Commissioner of Public Roads is authorized and directed to make a survey of the need for a system of express highways throughout the United States, the number of such highways needed, the approximate routes which they should follow, and the approximate cost of construction and to report to the President and to Congress within six months after the date of the enactment of this Act the result of such survey, together with such recommendations for legislation as is deemed advisable.

That act was approved on July 13, 1943. President Roosevelt had already appointed an Interregional Highway Committee to make a study of this whole matter. This Committee consisted of—I think we ought to have their names in the record, too, at this point-Thomas H. MacDonald, Commissioner of the Bureau of Public Roads, Chairman; Donald Kennedy, Vice Chairman-Mr. Kennedy was highway commissioner of Michigan; C. H. Purcell; Frederic A. Delano; Harland Bartholomew, and Rexford G. Tugwell, who later became Governor of Puerto Rico. His duties in Puerto Rico did not permit Mr. Tugwell to have very much to do with preparing the report.

Another member was appointed, the former Governor of Alabama, the Honorable Bibb Graves, but he died very early in the proceedings and these other men carried on.

This Committee made quite a report and submitted it to the Congress and submitted it to the President.

Then the next step in the chronological development is section 7, and I want to read this and comment on it briefly. Public Law 521, of the 78th Congress, the same Congress that received the report, approved December 20, 1944. I have looked through this public law very carefully trying to find some authority that I couldn't find there, and I will mention that in a moment.

I want to read section 7 into the record:

There shall be designated within the continental United States a National System of Interstate Highways not exceeding 40,000 miles in total extent, so located as to connect by routes as direct as practicable

and Senator Bennett read that quote a moment ago—

the principal metropolitan areas, cities, and industrial centers to serve the national defense and to connect at suitable border points with routes of continental importance in the Dominion of Canada and the Republic of Mexico. The routes of the National System of Interstate Highways shall be selected by joint action of the State highway departments of each State and the adjoining States as provided by the Federal Highway Act of November 9, 1921, for the selection of the Federal-aid system. All highways or routes included in the National System of Interstate Highways as finally approved, if not already included in the Federal-aid highway system, shall be added to said system without regard to any mileage limitation.

I went down to the Bureau of Public Roads yesterday and had a conference with Mr. duPont, who is an Assistant to the Secretary of Commerce, and with Mr. Curtiss, who is the head of the Bureau of Public Roads. They suggested that they were powerless to do anything about our petition for 500 additional miles within the 40,000

miles.

Senator GORE. Why were they powerless?

Governor JOHNSON. They said that they had designated approximately 37,600 miles which left 2,400 miles within the 40,000 miles that had not been designated, but they said that that 2,400 miles was necessary to provide for what they called circumferential highways around the cities, to bypass the cities. They said as a matter of fact that they required 2,600 miles. They would use up all the 2,400 and they would have 200 less than was necessary to do the job that they had.

I am interested in section 7 that I just read to you. It says nothing about the bypass highways around the cities. It talks about the basic Interstate Highway System in the Nation. Of course highways need to be built around the cities but when the cities determine where those highways are to be, there may be a considerable lapse of time.

I know that the Bureau of Public Roads has been after the Colorado State Highway Department to make an estimate on the number of miles that Colorado would need to build highways around the city of Denver, and they made a rough guess that it would require 17 miles. However, the highway department said that that is not a blueprint; that they do not know whether that 17 miles will be necessary, whether more than 17 miles will be necessary, or what the situation may be.

And I think that Denver is typical of all the cities in the United States, and I doubt whether very many of them can come up and say to the Bureau of Public Roads that we need a certain number of miles to take the highways out of our cities. I am thinking of Pittsburgh, Pa., now. I do not know how anyone there could devise a system of highways that would take the highway out of the city of Pittsburgh.

I think that that is typical of nearly every city that we have. And so it may take a long, long time before they reach any conclusion. And 2,400 miles may be a considerable underestimate of the number of miles it will take to take the main highways, the Interstate System, out of the cities of this country.

Senator GORE. From your statement is it fair to conclude, Governor, that the Bureau of Roads in the Department of Commerce is not in fact powerless to designate this route?

Governor JOHNSON. That is my argument. Of course, the law that was set up is that the Bureau of Public Roads was to work the matter out with the State highway department. The argument that I am trying to make now is that they are not powerless, that they have 2,300 or 2,400 miles left, as the case may be they say 2,300, and that may be the correct mileage.

My argument is that they do have that amount of mileage yet to be designated. These highways that they are talking about around the cities are only prospects, in essence, at best.

Mr. Curtiss told me that he was going to appear before this committee on Thursday, and Mr. Du Pont told me that he was going to appear before this committee on Friday, and I hope that this committee will ask these gentlemen if this is only a glorified guess, the amount of mileage that they need for these cities, or if they have something far more substantial upon which to base it.

Senator GORE. You might be interested to know, Governor, that at a previous session of the committee I asked Mr. Curtiss to supply the committee with definitive standards by which additional interstate routes would be designated. He was unable to supply that information. I thought it assumed considerable importance in view of the fact that each bill before this committee proposes to increase the Federal share of the cost of interstate roads.

So I addressed a letter to the Secretary of Commerce under date of April 5 of which I would like to read a bit :

It is my hope that our highway hearings can be brought to a close on Friday, April 15 with either a return engagement by you or Mr. Curtiss. If you designate him as departmental spokesman for that purpose, subjects on which the committee would like detailed information on that day are as follows: one, definitive standards by which further mileage will be designated as interstate highways. Will the Department need either specific or general language relating hereto in a highway bill which is reported by the committee?

Then I also, under No. 5, said:

What is the position of the Department with respect to increasing the interstate highway mileage?

That is, I have an mind increasing it above 40,000. I asked for the most recent studies in this respect:

If the interstate highway mileage is to be increased, to what maximum would the Department recommend its increase? What are the standards for such determination?

In other words, in relation to your suggestion that you would like to see the committee inquire into this, I want to call to your attention that I had already asked the Secretary of Commerce to either appear or designate some official spokesman from the Department to appear specifically on those questions.

Governor JOHNSON. I understand that Mr. Du Pont, his assistant, will appear. Mr. Du Pont told me that he would.

One point must be remembered, however: that the 40,000 mile limitation is a limitation that was placed by law, by the Congress of the United States, and only the Congress can change that. The men in the Bureau of Public Roads cannot change it, as you well know. However, Colorado is not taking a position either for increasing the 40,000 miles or not increasing it. We believe that there is mileage that can be designated within the 40,000 miles. But if there is not

any mileage which can be designated within the 40,000 miles we think that it ought to be provided above the 40,000 miles.

Mr. Curtiss made the reply to me on this very point that in the report of the committee headed by Mr. MacDonald and I have read the members' names to you-they made a recommendation for building these circumferential highways around the city. But I am unable to find anything in the law that directs that to be done.

Senator GORE. Is it your thinking that those are properly urban systems?

Governor JOHNSON. That is correct. I think that they are properly urban systems where the work needs to be done; that it ought to be done in a separate program; that it has nothing to do with this Interstate System; and that while the work should be done, that it is very necessary to be done, I do not think it ought to be done within the limit of 40,000 miles, and I do not think Congress has ever directed that it be done within the 40,000 miles.

Colorado has moved diligently from the very beginning to have a designation across the State of Colorado east and west. Mr. Charles Vail, who was highway commissioner, was very alert about that, and very insistent, and he is a very determined man. He pressed hard for two highways-Highway 50 and Highway 6 across the State of Colorado. Mr. Vail had considerable correspondence with Senator Millikin and was assured by Senator Millikan that the whole Colorado congressional delegation was supporting Mr. Vail in his efforts to get these interstate highways across the State of Colorado. Unfortunately and with a great loss to the State of Colorado, Mr. Vail died in January 1945.

Senator GORE. This is a different route of which you are speaking now?

Governor JOHNSON. I am talking about the same highway across the State of Colorado east and west, connecting Denver with Salt Lake City through the State of Colorado.

Senator GORE. Governor, what kind of road is there now?

Governor JOHNSON. Federal-aid primary highways in both instances from Pueblo to Grand Junction, and across the State of Colorado from Julesburg to Denver to Grand Junction, and then the road that Mr. Vail was pushing for would connect with a highway in Utah that would go through Utah and make a connection with Salt Lake City.

If you will look at your map of the Interstate Highway System in the United States you will find that there is only one other State in the United States that does not have east and west highways through it, and that other State is North Carolina, and it has a highway running from the northeast to the southwest but not directly east and west.

The travel in the United States is, quite generally, east and west. That is the big travel. Colorado has no highway east and west through it. New Mexico to the south of us has two highways east and west.

Senator GORE. You mean interstate highways?

Governor JOHNSON. Interstate highways is what I am talking about. We have a lot of Federal-aid highways in Colorado east and west. You can look at the map and you will find that Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, Utah, Arizona has two,

New Mexico has two, North and South Dakota, Nebrasa, Kansas, all the States.

Senator CASE. Just a moment. Does either North or South Dakota have a north and south highway?

Governor JOHNSON. No; but they have east and west.
Senator CASE. Colorado has a north and south highway?

Governor JOHNSON. Yes. We are talking about east and west highway because that is the highway that Colorado needs so desperately. Senator CASE. Would you abandon the north and south designation in favor of an east-west designation?

Governor JOHNSON. That is not for me to say what should be abandoned and what should not be abandoned.

Senator BUSH. Senator, are there any obstacles in the way of the Denver-Salt Lake City route? Is there any obvious reason why it should not go through?

Governor JOHNSON. It is a mountainous country, as you know.

Senator BUSH. Is it a very expensive thing to use that route Denver to Salt Lake City as the bird files?

Governor JOHNSON. I do not think that the expense of it would be a deciding factor. The Colorado General Assembly only 10 days ago authorized the building of a tunnel, a 3-mile tunnel through the Continental Divide, which is estimated to cost $5 million a mile. They authorized that and provided for a bond issue to cover the expense of building it, with the expectation of making it a toll road.

With such a tunnel through the Continental Divide, which Colorado is prepared to build, we can provide a water grade clear across the State east and west through Colorado with probably the maximum grade not over 5 percent, which is a very good grade for highways. Senator GORE. Senator Martin has a question.

Senator MARTIN. It is my recollection that Denver and Salt Lake City are connected up with Route 40. Is that correct?

Governor JOHNSON. There are several highways. Highway 50 and Highway 24, Highway 40, Highway 34, and Highway 6.

Senator MARTIN. Where do you contemplate this tunnel? Governor JOHNSON. The tunnel will be located where the engineers and the geologists say it will be located. We want to locate it where they have granite all the way without any faults. We want it to be located at an elevation that will really keep the grade down. The legislature left it to the technicians to work out the location for the highway tunnel.

We are not contending today that the 500 additional miles in Colorado be placed at any particular place or upon any particular road. We want that to be determined by the Bureau of Public Roads and by our own highway department and by the engineers and the folks who are able to decide such questions on their merit because there is a great deal of technical data that will influence the decision one way or another.

Senator MARTIN. The reason I am asking you that, I have always been very much interested in a road clear across the United States, not only for industrial purposes but also for military purposes. I hurriedly, 2 or 3 years ago, went over Route 40. Our roads in the United States have been following Indian trails, explorers' trails, and so on and so forth. That has happened for more than the last hundred years.