extent that legal problems are any impediment to the enactment of this bill, I do not consider them serious at all. The Department of Justice, and I am sure the whole administration, would gladly cooperate to dispose of any problems which may arise in order to help get this vital program on the road.

That completes my statement, Mr. Chairman.

Senator GORE. General, one question has been raised to which you did not make reference, and that is the lack of a term of office proposed for the members of the Board of this Corporation, the Commissioners.

Mr. BROWNELL. Yes.

Senator GORE. Do you think that is a defect in the bill? Should there be a definite term of office?

Mr. BROWNELL. There is a well-recognized, I think, precedent there that if the term is not provided the officer would hold his position at the will of the President, this being part of the executive branch of the Government.

Senator GORE. You do not think it is a defect in the bill?

Mr. BROWNELL. No; it would not be a legal defect. It would be a policy for the Congress to determine.

Senator GORE. Senator McNamara.

Senator MCNAMARA. Do you agree with the figures that are in the Clay report indicating that the Federal Government would borrow $21 billion, pay interest on it to about $1112 billion on this $9 billion? Mr. BROWNELL. I am going to have to go back to my statement on that, Senator, that I am not here as an expert in the field of public roads or fiscal management.

Senator MCNAMARA. I assume you either accept it or reject it. Which position do you take? Do you accept it?

Mr. BROWNELL. I would accept the statements that are made here as far as the fiscal points are concerned, made by the Secretary of the Treasury and the Secretary of Commerce in prior testimony before the committee.

Senator MCNAMARA. Which indicates that we will pay $112 billion interest for the use of $21 billion.

Mr. BROWNELL. That is not my interpretation of the testimony. Senator MCNAMARA. That is what it says in the Clay report, as I read it.

Senator BUSH. I think the record should show that that is Senator McNamara's interpretation, and I certainly do not subscribe to that statement.

Senator MCNAMARA. What do you think of all the bonds outstanding, $21 billion is the total the Government will issue under this bill

Mr. BROWNELL. Presumably.

Senator MCNAMARA. And that means $1112 billion interest in the columns. It is in black and white, and I would be glad to have the statement as my interpretation.

Senator GORE. Senator Martin.

Senator MARTIN. I have no further questions, I believe.

Senator GORE. Senator Case.

Senator CASE. Mr. Chairman, on page 9 the Attorney General has a paragraph at the top of the page which refers to an indefinite appropriation.

I do not question but that appropriations of an indefinite nature have been made, but they have got to be made in 1 of 2 ways: A bill reported by the Appropriations Committee, and even there they can be subject to a point of order if it exceeds the duration of Congress as being subject to a rule; and by the rules of Congress, a legislative committee may not report appropriation bills.

The only way it could be done without being subject to a point of order would be in the House to have a closed rule or in the Senate to waive it by a two-thirds vote.

Therefore, this committee would have a very practical problem in attempting to report a bill that of itself made an appropriation. The only thing that we could do, without being subject to the challenge on a point of order, would be to authorize an appropriation. Mr. BROWNELL. If we could be of any help to you in working out the necessary procedures, let us know and we will gladly try to do it. Senator MARTIN. I wonder if I could be excused, Mr. Chairman. I am terribly sorry.

Senator GORE. Čertainly, Senator Martin.

Senator MCNAMARA. Mr. Chairman, I want to apologize to the Senator from Connecticut, because I see that this is actually $111⁄2 billion on $20 billion; $20,235,000,000, some slight correction.

Senator BUSH. Mr. Chairman, let me make a point, as long as the Senator wants to deal with that again.

You might say that any time the Government borrows money, if we issue a 30-year Government bond, let us say, just to keep it on the same basis with the project under discussion that you pay 3 percent per year on that bond.

If you issue a million dollars worth of bonds, you pay $30,000 a year; and if you pay it for 30 years, you pay $900,000 or almost as much as you borrow.

If your argument holds then, you are suggesting they ought not to borrow for anything because we have to pay so much interest.

Senator MCNAMARA. Whether it is the Government or anybody else, you do not borrow if you can do it any other way.

Senator BUSH. Yes; but nobody has suggested any other way to get these roads built in 10 years without borrowing money, at least not so far, and the emphasis is on the necessity of getting these roads built.

Of course, you can claim if you borrowed the money for 50 years, that increases the interest by 20 years, another $600,000; so then you are paying more in interest than you are for the money.

Senator MCNAMARA. I am using the figures in the Clay report. Senator BUSH. I am not questioning the figures, but my point is you are questioning the whole principle of borrowing money, not only in connection with this bill, but in connection with the operation of the Federal Government and State governments or anything else.

Only you have got to pay interest on the money and if you add up interest over the whole period of the program, it becomes a very high percentage of the loan; but that applies to all Government borrowing. Senator MCNAMARA. And furthermore, you pass it on to the next generation to pay.

Senator BUSH. As far as you and I are concerned. I think some of the gentlemen

Senator MCNAMARA. My children-when you get up to our age bracket, you are passing it on to our grandchildren. Senator BUSH. I am not so sure about that.

Senator MCNAMARA. This is a 3-percent minimum too. As Senator Byrd said, he doubts very much that you will borrow this money on the basis of 3 percent.

Senator BUSH. The Senator might be right, but there is also good evidence from the market place, from those who are interested in handling these bonds at 3 percent, and the Secretary of the Treasury said so the other day.

Senator MCNAMARA. I must say that I am very concerned with the $11 billion that will pay for no roads, pay for no bridges, just spent for interest.

Senator BUSH. I can see that it bothers the Senator very much, and it bothers me very much too. I would like not to borrow at all, but my point is it is not quite fair to take the interest per annum and multiply it by 30 years and say that is 90 percent of the whole loan, we cannot afford that much.

You might then apply it to the whole principle.

Senator MCNAMARA. Maybe General Clay should not have said it. Senator BUSH. He has to, because he has got to describe it, but I cannot see anything wrong with it.

Senator MCNAMARA. I am not a banker, and that actually is our difference in viewpoints.

Senator BUSH. You do not have to be a banker to understand my position on that.

Senator CASE. Mr. Chairman, I do not know that there is any question on it, but on this discussion about it, I think originally the Senator from Michigan assumed that the interest would be subtracted from the $21 billion bond issue.

Actually, of course, it would not be. That would be a capital for it. The interest would be from the gasoline revenues or the appropriations or it could come from the $5 billion that the Secretary of the Treasury might advance.

In any event, it would be over and above the $21 billion capital.
Senator MCNAMARA. You are right, Senator Case.

Senator CASE. Of course, the question of whether or not to pay interest, sometimes it is best to pay interest if you need the equipment, if you need the tools.

The matter of borrowing money to build roads, as far as I am personally concerned, I do not object to that provided you do not abuse that.

In a factory, you determine sometimes you have to have new tools and new equipment to produce more efficiency and produce accident reduction, and so it pays to put in new equipment sometimes. It may be in this country today that we have a highway situation where we need better roads to reduce accidents. You may be paying more in highway insurance rates and through accident losses. It is a matter of judgment in every instance as to how far you go in borrowing, I think, to get new tools.

Senator GORE. Not only how much you borrow, but whether you borrow it at the least possible interest rate.

Senator CASE. Yes.

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Senator GORE. One of the questions raised here, General, is that in order to promote this legal fiction--this technical distinction that bonds are not within the debt limit and are within the constitutional provision permitting the collection of taxes to pay debts-we would be borrowing money at a high interest rate.

I believe the Secretary of the Treasury indicated that he would be surprised if the interest rate was more than 32 percent. He thought it would be somewhere within the range from 3 to 31⁄2 percent.

That range is considerably above the going rate for orthodox Federal borrowing. I believe that is the real question before the committee with respect to interest.

Senator Case, had you concluded?

Senator CASE. Yes; I am through.
Senator GORE. Senator Bush?

Senator BUSH. No; I have no further questions. Thank you. Senator GORE. General, we are indebted to you and appreciate your appearance.

Mr. BROWNELL. Thank you very much.

Senator GORE. Thank you, sir.

The committee will now hear Mr. Curtiss, the head of the Bureau of Public Roads.

Senator CASE. Mr. Chairman.

Senator GORE. Senator Case.

Senator CASE. I do not want to presume or hop ahead of you in case you had some remarks to make, but I would like to note for the record that I think this is the first time that Captain Curtiss has appeared as Commissioner of the Bureau of Public Roads, and it has been customary, I think, when you had a Commissioner appointed to have a little pedigree or statement of background put into the record.

Captain Curtiss has been associated with such organizations so long that he hardly needs that statement of background. He has been in the Bureau of Public Roads I do not know how many years; but if there was ever a career appointee advanced to the chief of his section, that man is Captain Curtiss.

I know, after my experience over a great number of years in the House and in the Senate, if you wanted to get some detailed information in the Bureau of Public Roads, if you were fortunate enough to be referred by the telephone operator to the office of Captain Curtiss, you would get the information promptly and accurately.

I think it is a fine tribute to him and it is a fine tribute to those who have recognized his ability, that he should come before us as the Commissioner of Public Roads.

Senator GORE. I thank you for that statement, Senator Case. It was made more ably than I could make it. I endorse everything you say, making only one addition: it has also been customary to have an initiation ceremony.

tee.

I believe, however, that Mr. Curtiss did appear before this commit

Senator CASE. As Commissioner?

Mr. CURTISS. Yes; a few weeks ago.

Senator GORE. Yes; and I neglected to do the honors which you have so generously and ably done.

Senator CASE. Unfortunately, I was called out of the hearing room at that time, Mr. Chairman. I am sorry.

Senator GORE. Do you have a prepared statement, Mr. Curtiss?

STATEMENT OF C. D. CURTISS, COMMISSIONER OF PUBLIC ROADS, DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, ACCOMPANIED BY FRANK C. TURNER, ASSISTANT TO THE COMMISSIONER OF PUBLIC ROADS

Mr. CURTISS. I do not have a prepared statement, but I am prepared to speak on several subjects that the staff advised me the committee would be interested in.

Senator GORE. Yes; for the benefit of the subcommittee, you do have before you the list of questions that were submitted to you.

I suggested to the clerk of the committee that he ask you to be particularly prepared on certain phases of it.

Mr. CURTISS. First the status of the Federal-aid program; then the question of the mileage limitation on the Interstate System, and perhaps some statement relative to the needs report which has just been submitted to the Congress.

Senator GORE. If I may suggest, I would like some time to read the needs report and then ask you some questions about that. Perhaps we could do that in the afternoon.

If the committee has no particular desire as to the order in which you take them up, I would like for you to talk first, and will defer to any member of the subcommittee, as to the mileage on the Interstate System.

What do you have in mind in the way of allocation or division of the additional 2,400 miles, and what is the justification, if any, for the additional mileage to be added to the system?

Mr. CURTISS. I would like, Mr. Chairman, to give the committee some historical background on the developments that led up to the legislation providing for the designation of the Interstate System or the National System of Interstate Highways.

Pursuant to a directive from the Congress in 1938, the Bureau of Public Roads made a report

Senator GORE. What was that date?

Mr. CURTISS. It was in 1938. The report was printed in 1939 as House Document No. 379, 78th Congress, 2d session."

We were directed to make a study of an interregional highway system. In making that study, consideration was given first to a small, rather limited system, consisting of about 14,300 miles; one of 26,700 miles; 29,300; 33,920 miles; 48,300; and 78,800.

The traffic characteristics of each of those systems was studied.

I would like to correct one statement I made, Mr. Chairman. The first report made in 1939 was on toll roads and free roads. It was a later directive of Congress that requested the interregional report. That was in 1941, and the report was made in 1944.

As a result of that study, this interregional highway committee, after studying all these different mileages and discussing them, a recommendation was made for a system of slightly less than 34,000

miles.

That system did not include circumferential or radial routes in urban areas. It merely carried the system through the city.