Mr. SNYDER. Well, you have really summarized our feelings. We all said it in different ways. All of us are certainly in no way financially connected with any aspect of skiing; we are all related to people; this is our business, most of us.

I think we are saying this: We have got so many people that could get so much good from this area without destroying the basic wilderness area. This is, in a nutshell, what we are saying. We are representing, I think, literally hundreds of thousands of people who would say this.

Mr. DAVIES. May I say something?

We camp about 2,000 youngsters every summer at one of our camps, right here in the Barton Flats area.

I have no fear that this ski setup in San Gorgonio on the slope there is going to hurt or affect our nature program or our wilderness program as far as our camps are concerned. I think this would apply to many of the camps.

Mr. HOSMER. Mr. Snyder, you spoke of the traffic problem and the highway accidents in the existing drives to the ski area.

What would be the hazard up here where it was just stated that hundreds of thousands of people would be anxious to get up there? Would you not have a traffic hazard up there that would be rather serious?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, I think the traffic hazard is present everywhere. But, if there is one, I would rather only have 100 miles of it than 400 or 500 miles of it.

Mr. HOSMER. Well, it has been stated it will be five times as dense; I am just trying to think this thing out.

Mr. SNYDER. I am not sure about how much denser it would be; I am sure that ultimately there would be tremendous traffic problems in this State. We know that.

But, I am saying that to not recognize it by working out a plan where people could only travel 100 miles instead of 500 miles-well, it seems to me it makes sense-just from a logical standpoint.

Mr. HOSMER. I understand that one of the other traffic hazards of skiing would be skiers on skis.

Mr. SNYDER. That's right.

Mr. HOSMER. If you had the mountain filled up there, what kind of situation would that engender?

Mr. SNYDER. Well, I am sure there will be a lot of broken legs if a lot of people ski.

But I would rather have broken legs than broken necks and smashed bodies which you get in car accidents.

There is quite a difference.

Mr. HOSMER. I would rather not have them at all.

Mr. SNYDER. Me, too.

Mr. HOSMER. Mr. Altschul, you described the necessity of getting out in the snow for these youngsters.

How about the necessity for skiing, do they have to go out and ski? Can't they just go into the snow? Are there not other things you can do in the snow beside ski?

Mr. ALTSCHUL. Yes; you can throw snowballs.

I am not being facetious, I believe that skiing is such a fine sport, both from a physical fitness standpoint and also from the idea of a

competitive sport for youngsters to individually and collectively compete, and I think this is the best way we can use the winter sports recreation.

Mr. HOSMER. You figure that you have to be a skier to get any use out of snow, basically?

Mr. ALTSCHUL. Well, really, yes.

Mr. HOSMER. Now, Mr. Bates, these Boy Scouts of yours; are they skiers, or do they throw snowballs and things like that?

Mr. BATES. They do just about anything, but the superiority of a skiing setup is that it gives them a sense of accomplishment.

Mr. HOSMER. Skiing at--you were saying San Gorgonio does not happen to be open to the production of Olympic champion ski teams in order to take care of the Boy Scout problem, does it?

Mr. BATES. No; I would just say that it would be nice if it were available to us to teach them how to ski.

Mr. HOSMER. Mrs. Wright, you finally got into Secretary of Defense McNamara's cost effectiveness area and I congratulate you for it. You have a $50 saving for a ski weekend.

How many times, on the average, does your family go skiing in a year, and how many more times would you go, assuming the opening of San Gorgonio?

Mrs. WRIGHT. Well, let me see, we probably go 10 weekends a year and, if we could save this much, it would mean that we would go that many more times. Because, actually, if you could go up for daysyou are not even talking about a weekend, for the-but if it is close enough for a day-in that event, we could take the kids up on a Sunday morning so the only expense we would have being our gasoline expense to and from and it also would be our lunch, which we can pack, of course, and then there would be our lift tickets. That is it. Mr. HOSMER. Then, you could figure that the 6 months the thing would be open, or the 26 weekends, out of those, you are going to take care of 20 of them.

I do not know, but is that not rather heavy use of these slopes?
Mrs. WRIGHT. We are diehard skiers.

Mr. HOSMER. I do not know what the average person would use in terms of number of weekends.

Mrs. WRIGHT. We are above average, sir. sir. [Applause.] Mr. HOSMER. I know that you do not take your children up there to keep them from becoming juvenile delinquents either?

Mrs. WRIGHT. No; I think that we are truly doing a good enough job at home that they will not turn out to be juvenile delinquents.

But I do want them to enjoy skiing and they do very much like skiing. I would like to be able to afford to take them more times. I think San Gorgonio would offer this opportunity.

Mr. HOSMER. You do not feel that your children are skiing in company with a bunch of other youngsters who, except for being on the hills, would be juvenile delinquents?

Mrs. WRIGHT. Well, I don't know all of these other children, I do not know what their habits are off the hill.

Mr. HOSMER. In other words, you are not an expert on juvenile delinquency?

Mrs. WRIGHT. Not lately.

Mr. HOSMER. I congratulate you for it.

Mrs. WRIGHT. Thank you.

Mr. HOSMER. Thank you, I believe I have no further questions at this time.

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much, the panel is excused.

The Chair now declares a 5-minute recess.

(A short recess was taken.)

Mr. BARING. The subcommittee hearing will come to order.

The next set of witnesses will be Overton Pratt, Thomas Slamal, Ray Wilson, Bill Hubbard, and Martin Heisler. This group is designated as the business and labor, Redlands and San Bernardino. This group also includes Rex Hornibrook.

You may proceed, and please give your name to the reporter.
Mr. Hornibrook.

STATEMENT OF REX HORNIBROOK, REPRESENTING BUSINESS AND LABOR, REDLANDS AND SAN BERNARDINO, CALIF.

Mr. HORNIBROOK. Mr. Chairman, I am Rex Hornibrook. I would like to clear the air.

I am a profit-oriented, prejudiced agent.

My business is industrial real estate.

With our major phaseout at Norton Air Force Base we need every advantage, recreationally and in all other ways, to bring a permanent, high-caliber type of people into this area, which we need to bolster a roller coaster economy.

It is another tool in our sales kit to have this ski area. We are told that this ski area will bring, many, many people into the area and tourism is another great part of our economic growth. Properly developed, this ski area will bring many times the people in the winter as it now does in the summer. It will be another small industry.

You have undoubtedly seen all kinds of figures on this and I personally am not qualified to give you specifics as to how many people or how much it will mean in dollars.

However, it will contribute; and, right now, we need every positive step possible.

Thank you very much.

Mr. BARING. The next speaker, please.

That will be Mr. Heisler.

STATEMENT OF MARTIN HEISLER, REPRESENTING BUSINESS AND LABOR, REDLANDS AND SAN BERNARDINO, CALIF.

Mr. HEISLER. Gentlemen, I was asked to present the paper of Mr. Ray W. Wilson, a business representative of the Hod Carriers & Laborers Union because he is out of town.

May I do so?

Mr. BARING. Yes; that is all right, you may do that.

You may present your own statement and that of Mr. Wilson. Mr. HEISLER. First, on my own behalf, I have hiked on Mount San Gorgonio, and I was impressed by the beauty of the area. Because of this beauty, I feel that more people should be able to appreciate it. I

would favor limited access into the area for winter recreation with specific safeguards against having lodging in the area and with provisions that any access road should not enter the area now extensively used by youth organizations, by campers, and hikers.

Now, I will present the statement of Mr. Wilson.

This is the testimony of Mr. Ray M. Wilson, business representative, Laborers Local No. 783 and member, San Bernardino County Central Labor Council, 104 West Benedict Street, San Bernardino, Calif.:

As one who has been active in the labor movement in San Bernardino County for a number of years, I am suporting this legislation to allow winter recreation on San Gorgonio Mountain for two very important reasons:

1. An important aspect of the program of organized labor is to secure more leisure time for our members so that they can have an opportunity to lead fuller and more_rewarding lives. We have made a great deal of progress along these lines and I am sure this progress will continue. However, simply increasing leisure time isn't enough. We must also make sure that cultural and recreational outlets are available so that this leisure time can be used more effec tively.

In southern California, present winter recreation facilities are extremely limited. The average family in this area cannot afford to participate in winter sports without a financial hardship because we have no day-use areas which offer the dependable snow cover necessary for winter sports. In the many other areas the United States, winter sports are considered healthy family recreation and are not limited to the comparatively small portion of the population who can afford frequent weekend trips away from home.

2. I believe that the economy of San Bernardino County needs the boost that it would receive from having a major winter sports area located on San Gorgonio Mountain. I am, of course, interested in this from the standpoint of jobs and generally in having more money in circulation in the San Bernardino area. As you may know, we have had to face the problem of the partial closing of one of the military bases in our county. This has naturally had a detrimental effect on our economy. I feel that it would be desirable to diversify our economy and place greater reliance on our recreation resources, the potential for which is very great. The demand for recreation cannot be "cut back" but will continue to grow at an ever-increasing rate, both because of our exploding population and increased leisure time.

The hundreds of thousands of dollars now flowing from southern California to northern California, and out of State, could stay right here and help to solve the problems our economy faces. I am also convinced that San Bernardino would find that if it had the only major winter sports area in southern California, new businesses would be more inclined to locate here. Availability of recreational facilities for employees is becoming an important consideration of business as the competition for skilled employees increases.

I know that many of the people in organized labor in San Bernardino are very interested in this legislation for the reasons outlined above. Several are members of the San Bernardino County Citizens for San Gorgonio, for instance, William Lentz, chairman of the San Bernardino County Central Labor Council, who is out of town today and, therefore, unable to be with us.

We feel that a controlled day-use winter recreation area on San Gorgonio could fulfill the winter recreation needs of southern California, while at the same time, helping to solve some of the problems of our economy in San Bernardino County.

Now, I was interested in the announcement made by the Defenders of San Gorgonio, inviting the general public to come and see what San Gorgonio looks like.

I did not know if I could stand the strain of hiking up San Gorgonio; I am going to be 104 years old in about 20 years and I used to do a lot of hiking in my early days in Switzerland and other places like that, but I made it.

I made the summit, minus 2 miles. So, I thought that was good enough for me.

I have hiked on San Gorgonio Mountain and I was impressed by the beauty of the area. Because of this beauty, I feel that more people should be able to appreciate it. I would favor limited access into the area for winter recreation, with specific safeguards against having lodging in the area, and with the provision that any access road should not enter the area now extensively used by youth organizations.

I was primarily concerned about the commercial angle that might take over the area and would make a Punch and Judy show out of the area; and, I am convinced after hearing several of the speakers this afternoon here that there are safeguards in the bill that Congressman Dyal has now gotten before the Congress at the present time, and I am satisfied that it will serve a terrific purpose along recreational lines. Thank you very much.

Mr. BARING. All right; the next speaker, please.

That will be Mr. Pratt.

STATEMENT OF OVERTON PRATT, REPRESENTING BUSINESS AND LABOR, REDLANDS AND SAN BERNARDINO, CALIF.

Mr. PRATT. My name is Overton Pratt.

As I see it, the real question is whether skiing would be compatible with the area's present use. Opponents claim that the wild flowers would be destroyed, the animals and birds and particularly the sheep would be pushed out of the area. Nothing is further from the truth, as anyone who has traveled in Yellowstone, Yosemite, and many other well-traveled national parks can testify. As a matter of fact, right today you will see more wild animals and birds in any one of these parks in 2 hours than you would in 2 days on San Gorgonio, even if you were looking for them. As for the flowers-we will be skiing over the top of them-on beautiful snow.

Also, we have been told that we do not need this area. All of you who ski know that nothing could be further from the truth. Our conditions at the ski areas today are so crowded that it is almost impossible to ski on a weekend. Our opponents have said that artificial snow is the answer. We all know that artificial snow certainly helps and especially on the beginner slopes. Yet, all of us know that this certainly is not the answer since only a small, limited area can be covered and for a skier to have to ski on this type of slope is like expecting a golfer to play golf on a miniature golf course. This San Gorgonio area is the one and only salvation for skiing in the southern California area. It is the only area that would assure us of from 4 to 6 months of skiing every year.

It has been said that large areas would be bulldozed. This is not so, as most of the areas are well above timberline in the 9,000- to 11,000foot range. Even the access roads will come in farther around to the north of the original proposal so as not to affect any of the present camping areas.

It has also been said that this area would be ruined as wilderness area, and that this would affect the scouting and youth camps. However, one of the high officials in the Los Angeles Boy Scouts appeared before a hearing and testified that if there was skiing on San Gorgonio that they would realize enough money from the use of their camps during the winter months to give free summer camping to the large number of underprivileged youths that otherwise could not afford to go to