splendid mind, and no doubt it was as pure as the driven snow and he never suspected there was to be political activity going on at headquarters. Now, Mr. Hillman, I simply do not believe that.

Mr. ABT. What you are asking is

Mr. BROWN. Now, Mr. Hillman

Mr. HILLMAN. You are not asking me a question? Of course I believe and counsel believes

Mr. BROWN. This is evidently a good place for him to speak.

Mr. ABT. What you are suggesting is perhaps an amendment to the Hatch Act that would accomplish what it does not now accomplish. The Hatch Act does not say a contribution in excess of $5,000

Mr. BROWN. That is your opinion of the law as an attorney. The Attorney General, in my opinion, has never passed on it, because the question was not before him at the time he wrote the letter. I hope the Attorney General will see fit, either this one or the next one, to pass upon it and look into it, and have a court decision upon it. I have spent a good many years on election disputes, and I have handled a good many Corrupt Practices Act cases in a rather large State. I think undoubtedly this question will have to be settled, not by an amendment of the law, but by a decision of the court, and until that happens, you can have your opinion and I will have mine.

CONTRIBUTION TO CANDIDATES

I would like to bring this question up: Now, Mr. Hillman, you and I understand each other on other matters, too. I am rather sure that we do. We have a meeting of the minds. You have brought in Mr. Dewey's name at least 10 or 12 times.

Mr. HILLMAN. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. You referred to some contribution that your organization made. My colleague brought that out. I was not unmindful of it before it was mentioned by him. I thought that it would probably be brought out by someone here. I rather suspected that you might mention it, if you lived up to my expectations. Now, at that time, was that contribution made directly to Mr. Dewey?

Mr. HILLMAN. To his campaign?

Mr. BROWN. To him personally?

Mr. HILLMAN. To elect him?

Mr. BROWN. Was it made to Mr. Dewey personally?

Mr. HILLMAN. There was a committee running his campaign. Mr. BROWN. Now, Mr. Hillman, you know whether it was made to his committee or to him personally.

Mr. HILLMAN. I would have to go back to see whether it was made to him or not. It was made as a contribution, not only by our organization but by a number of organizations. I will say this, that I know that he was aware of it, if you mean that.

Mr. BROWN. We appreciate the contribution from the gentlemen of the Federal Security Administration, but you and I understand each other. Did you make the contribution to him personally? Mr. HILLMAN. No; I did not make the contribution.

Mr. BROWN. Did he personally ask for it; do you know?

Mr. HILLMAN. The person asking for him asked for it. I tried to bargain it down. I know that it did not go below $5,000.

Mr. BROWN. And Tom Dewey, or his representative, insisted on $5,000?

Mr. HILLMAN. I think that they asked for more.

Mr. BROWN. You are a pretty good bargainer, and you were finally able to settle for $5,000?

Mr. HILLMAN. I said to my man, and I think that is my recollection on the thing, that $5,000 was sufficient.

Mr. BROWN. Why did you give the $5,000?

Mr. HILLMAN. Because I wanted to see him elected; because I thought that he would make a good district attorney, and I still believe that is the best record that he will ever refer to as the years go on.

Mr. BROWN. What has Tom Dewey done to make you turn against him-I am trying to find out about him?

Mr. HILLMAN. He is not running for district attorney any more. Mr. BROWN. What has he done that has changed your mind about him? Has he done a reprehensible thing? Have you had a disagreement, you and Tom Dewey?

Mr. HILLMAN. None whatsoever; none personally.

Mr. BROWN. You and Tom Dewey were on the best of terms?
Mr. HILLMAN. We were on the best of terms.

Mr. BROWN. Now, wait just a minute. Were there any questions between you and Tom Dewey as to some of your friends? Mr. HILLMAN. Now, Congressman

Mr. BROWN. No; I mean that.

Mr. HILLMAN. You asked a question and I would like to answer that. I have supported Mr. Dewey because I was looking forward to an administration in that office that I hoped he would give, and he has given it. I have cooperated with him and his associates all the way through. There was never a difference; never.

Mr. BROWN. When did the difference come?

Mr. HILLMAN. The difference-there is no personal difference right

now.

Mr. BROWN. You are still good personal friends?

Mr. HILLMAN. I met him the last time, I think, in September in the city of Albany when he was addressing a convention of the C. I. O., the State council.

Mr. BROWN. It is not a question that you love him less but that you love the other candidate more?

Mr. HILLMAN. I believe that the situation does not call for people that you like or dislike. I think that the Presidential situation in the country at this time would call for the person that we can hope will be able to cope with the problems. I am satisfied that Mr. Dewey is not equipped in any shape, form, or manner to handle either the international or the post-war problems. I am not speaking against Mr. Dewey as a man. I am not speaking against his character in any way. I know that in 1942 the Democratic Party had a splendid record for 20 years and was entitled to the support of the average man. I have not known Mr. Bennett very well. I have known Mr. Dewey better, personally, than Mr. Bennett.

Mr. BROWN. You have nothing against Mr. Dewey's character?
Mr. HILLMAN. No; nor was there any personal quarrel between us.
Mr. BROWN. You feel that he is a man of high character?
Mr. HILLMAN. There is no question about that, as far as I know.

Mr. BROWN. And you were for him for district attorney?

Mr. HILLMAN. He might do even as Governor when everybody else is employed and there are no particular problems.

Mr. BROWN. Was there anything about him that you did not like as district attorney?

Mr. HILLMAN. I approved of everything he did when he was district attorney.

Mr. BROWN. This disagreement came when he ran for Governor?

Mr. HILLMAN. I have felt as a citizen in the State of New York that I ought to give my support to the party that had a splendid record starting with the governorship.

Mr. BROWN. And it was a party matter rather than a personal matter?

Mr. HILLMAN. I felt it was the decent thing to do. Why should you not continue a party that has a splendid record? The only thing we are asking from you gentlemen in office, when we ask you to follow what we consider a policy of good government, is that you do it

Mr. BROWN. Then you were supporting the party?

Mr. HILLMAN. That is right.

Mr. BROWN. And it was not an individual choice between the other candidate and Mr. Dewey?

to

Mr. HILLMAN. I felt that Mr. Bennett's record was good enough

Mr. BROWN. In this Presidential race you are supporting the party, or the individual?

Mr. HILLMAN. I am supporting definitely the individual.

Mr. BROWN. You have a definite responsibility for the Presidential candidate.

Mr. HILLMAN. Obviously, it is a different situation, a governorship in New York State and the Presidential candidate in 1944, U. S. A. The kind of yardstick to measure by, as I approach it, should not be partisanship, narrow partisanship. It does not speak at all against the man. He has no experience.

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. HILLMAN. I would say, if it were not a case of emergency such as we have today, my approach would be different; not only mine, but most Americans.

Mr. BROWN. Let me say to you in explanation for the other members of the committee who may not understand why I asked these questions, I would not have asked this series of questions if it had not been for the allusion that you made, time after time, to Mr. Dewey as if something reprehensible had happened because his campaign committee accepted a contribution from your organization.

Mr. HILLMAN. Pardon me, Congressman. I have stated I do not see anything reprehensible in a labor organization giving support, to a candidate. I think the labor organizations are just as good and have just as much at stake as the du Pont family.

Mr. BROWN. Why did you bring that out so often?

Mr. HILLMAN. Because there is a campaign in the country, particularly through Mr. Dewey's office and the people around him, as if there is something evil in accepting contributions from labor organizations.

I hope that Mr. Dewey does not support Mr. Brownell's statements, but then it is about time for him to speak up on that as on many other matters.

Mr. BROWN. You would not be for him anyhow. It would not make any difference what he would say?

Mr. HILLMAN. Of course not. I believe that he is not equipped to handle the situation.

Mr. BROWN. Why cannot you let those interested in Mr. Dewey worry about that?

Mr. HILLMAN. If you put him over, all of us will pay the price for it. Once the election is over, it is no more Republican or Democrat, it is the country.

Mr. BROWN. Just to clear the record, just as a protection, inasmuch as I was a delegate to the Republican National Convention, you were a delegate to the Democratic Convention?

Mr. HILLMAN. I was not a delegate.

Mr. BROWN. You were quite active for not being a delegate?

Mr. HILLMAN. No.

Mr. BROWN. That is great news.

Mr. HILLMAN. I read a great deal in the papers of my activities. When you say "activities," I was not active.

Mr. BROWN. I saw you in the Sherman Hotel. Were you just an innocent bystander?

Mr. HILLMAN. I was visiting some people up there.

Mr. BROWN. Friends?

Mr. HILLMAN. I was visiting with Mr. Murray, of course. We wanted to present our program to the committee.

Mr. BROWN. Did you attend the Republican National Convention? Mr. HILLMAN. No. Mr. Van Bittner did.

Mr. BROWN. I thought I missed you there.

Mr. HILLMAN. You missed Mr. Willkie as well. He was not around.

Mr. BROWN. To be honest about it, as I understand it, neither one of you was invited. Were you given an invitation to the Democratic National Convention?

Mr. HILLMAN. No; I just asked for the opportunity to present a program. If I was not invited, I can understand why; but why was Mr. Willkie not invited?

Mr. BROWN. I wonder why the Democrats do not invite you to their convention?

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you, Mr. Hillman.

Mr. ABT. Before we adjourn, I would like to return to a question that Mr. Caddell asked this morning regarding the additional information that you requested.

The CHAIRMAN. If you do not mind, the committee would probably like to have a little session of its own. Certainly, we will want regularly the reports. I think the committee will try to give you a formula that may make the burden somewhat simpler and at the same time give the information.

Mr. ABT. Until we receive the communication nothing is owing from us?

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

(Whereupon the committee adjourned.)

INDEX

WITNESSES

Abt, John J., counsel, Congress of Industrial Organizations Political Action
Committee.

Baldwin, C. B., assistant chairman, Congress of Industrial Organizations
Political Action Committee.

Hillman, Sidney, chairman, Congress of Industrial Organizations Political
Action Committee.

SUBJECT MATTERS

C

Page

3

3

3

Congress of Industrial Organizations Political Action Committee:
Contributions and expenditures in congressional primary campaigns__
Funds frozen__.

Individual contributions account disbursements.

Trade-union account..

Trade-union contributions account_

Financial statement..

Disbursements..

Nature of..

15

22, 31

14

115

13

12

13

30

29

51

-22, 24, 26, 32, 46, 49, 86, 91

36

Circulation of literature..

Contributions to candidates.

Contributions by Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America.

Contribution to Republican National Committee.

Local Political Action Committee and National Citizens Political Action
Committee organizations...

63327-44-pt. 1-7