many other newspapers, I assume, from time to time has to borrow money. I am mentioning the Baltimore Sun because it happens to be a recent example. Every newspaper in the country, or most newspapers in the country, advocate the election of a particular candidate. Newspapers, like other corporate institutions or financial institutions, from time to time have to borrow money. A loan of money is a contribution under the terms of the Hatch Act. If what you say is correct, the Baltimore Sun-to take it as an example-if it borrowed more than $5,000 before it came out in furtherance of the cause of Mr. Dewey-would be in violation of the Hatch Act after publishing its editorial supporting Mr. Dewey. Mr. BROWN. It certainly would be if the Baltimore Sun was formed for the purpose of engaging only in political activities, and that was their primary activity, but of course that is not true. Therefore, your argument does not hold water. I am not going to argue the question of law. I am asking whether or not you contributed $100,000, which you did at that time, and if it is your opinion that you are not in violation of the law. It is my opinion that you are very much in violation of the law. I imagine it is the opinion of probably 95 percent of the attorneys of the United States. Mr. ABT. Taken as a whole, I do not know. Mr. BROWN. You say that the Attorney General and yourself look at it the same way. Mr. ABT. I think that you are making a rash assertion of fact. Mr. ABT. I would like to point out, however, that the analogy is not as far-fetched as you pointed out because the C. I. O. Political Action Committee was organized for many purposes in addition to the advocacy of the candidacy of particular candidates. If you will read our literature you will find out that is correct, and if you will look at our activities you will find out that is correct. Mr. BROWN. Mr. Hillman testified that it is a political organization. Mr. ABT. You can define the term "political organization" in any way that you like, and in such a way that you can get us under the tent. If you let me define a political organization, I can define it in such a way that the Political Action Committee will not be a political organization. It depends upon what you mean and I mean when we use those two words-"political organization." Mr. BROWN. It also depends upon what the viewpoint is that the general public has and what the people understand and think it is. Mr. ABT. The point that I would like to call your attention to is that the C. I. O. Political Action Committee was not formed by any means for the exclusive purpose of securing the election or defeat of particular candidates. It does have a broad educational program which it has engaged in and will continue to engage in. Mr. BROWN. Suppose that the manufacturers would form a similar organization. Let us go back to that. You named the National Association of Manufacturers awhile ago. Suppose they began to do the same thing, and corporations contribute to the National Association of Manufacturers a sum of money before that association should take any interest in any candidate. Would that then be a legal expenditure? Would it be all right for them to do that? Mr. ABT. I would suppose that whatever holds good for a labor organization would hold good for such an organization. Mr. BROWN. In your opinion would it be satisfactory and in the public interest for, we will say, all of the retail merchants of the United States to form an organization and to have local divisions and organizations and assess or request contributions from members and from large concerns, and after the contributions are made suddenly decide that they want to support certain candidates for office and oppose others? Would that, in your opinion Mr. ABT. As a lawyer iny immediate concern is not my concept of the public interest, but Congress' concept of the public interest. I would like to call your attention to the fact that there is a very clear distinction between the wording of the Corrupt Practices Act, in that connection, and the wording of the Hatch Act. The Corrupt Practices Act prohibits contributions in connection with an election "which, to my mind, is a far broader term than the terminology contained in the Hatch Act," to a committee engaged in doing this, that, and something else. I assume that Congress made that differentiation advisedly. Mr. BROWN. In your opinion the phrase "being engaged in" does not mean that that has to be their sole activity? Mr. ABT. No; not their sole activity. Mr. BROWN. Is that correct? Mr. ABT. Not their sole activity, but their activity at the time they are the recipients of the contribution. I think that is the plain meaning of those words. Mr. BROWN. In your legal opinion it would be satisfactory and legal for corporations to contribute huge sums to associations if, prior to the time of the contributions, the association had not been engaged in political activity, and if later the association did use the very same money for political purposes? Mr. ABT. Of course, the corporation would be subject to the same provisions of the Corrupt Practices Act that the labor organizations are now subject to. Offhand, I would see no legal objection to it. Mr. BROWN. Do you have any figures as to the total amount of money that has been received from the dollar contributions up to August 15? Mr. BALDWIN. No, but a very small amount. I do not have that here. We can give it to you. Mr. BROWN. What is your goal in that particular line of endeavor? Mr. HILLMAN. We have no particular goal on that. If all the members would make their contributions, assuming that there are 5,000,000 of them, that would amount to $2,500,000, but of course we do not expect to get it. Mr. BROWN. But you are like any other political or educational organization-you will accept all contributions? Mr. HILLMAN. Within the ceiling that you gentlemen have set and that is $3,000,000; but we do not expect to get contributions anywhere near that amount. Mr. BROWN. Are contributions still being accepted by the C. I. O. Political Action Committee? Mr. HILLMAN. Do you mean from trade-unions? Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. HILLMAN. No. Mr. BROWN. From any other sources. Now, do the C. I. O. Political Action Committee Mr. HILLMAN. The dollar contributions go to the C. I. O. Political Action Committee from the C. I. O. membership. Mr. BROWN. It does not go to the Citizens? Mr. HILLMAN. Not to the Citizens. Mr. BROWN. It goes only to the C. I. O.? Mr. HILLMAN. Only to the C. I. O. Political Action Committee. Mr. BROWN. As to the Citizens National Political Action Committee, where will they obtain their funds? Mr. HILLMAN. Just from ordinary people making their contributions. Mr. BROWN. Will there be any from organized labor? Mr. HILLMAN. Of course, if individuals want to give to us-it would not be from organization funds but from individual funds. Mr. BROWN. I am talking about this dollar. Mr. HILLMAN. That dollar comes to the C. I. O. Political Action Committee. Mr. BROWN. Fifty cents on the dollar. Mr. HILLMAN. Yes. Mr. BROWN. Then if each one of these men belongs to the C. I. O. in a community wants to contribute to the Citizens National Political Action Committee he may do so, but it is a separate contribution and a different contribution from the other dollar he gives to C. I. O. Mr. HILLMAN. That is right. Mr. BROWN. Are there any efforts being made to get contributions from Mr. HILLMAN. C. I. O. membership? Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. HILLMAN. No. It is just the other way There will be no effort. We could not stop a person from making a contribution, but we are asking the membership of the C. I. O. to make their contributions to the C. I. O. Political Action Committee. Mr. BROWN. Are you getting very many contributions from other labor organizations, such as the American Federation of Labor? Mr. HILLMAN. We have not asked for any. Mr. BROWN. I presume that you have read some of their recent statements that have appeared in some of their official publications. Mr. HILLMAN. Disagreeing with our policy? Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. HILLMAN. Yes. Mr. BROWN. Is that disagreement rather general? Mr. HILLMAN. Not by their actions, Congressman. As you know, the State Federation of Labor of New York State endorsed Mr. Roosevelt. Mr. BROWN. I am not talking about endorsing Mr. Roosevelt. We are not interested in either Mr. Roosevelt or Mr. Dewey. We are interested in what your committee is doing. Mr. HILLMAN. I am thinking in terms of what we are doing and what they are doing. They are doing exactly the same thing. Mr. BROWN. I want you to think only of that. Mr. HILLMAN. Think about what? Mr. BROWN. Whether they are joining in the actual operations of the C. I. O. Political Action Committee or the Citizens National Political Action Committee. Mr. HILLMAN. We have not asked any of the American Federation of Labor members to join the National C. I. O. Political Action Committee, or the National Citizens Political Action Committee. We have not asked any of them to join us. We are keeping the C. I. O. Political Action Committee as a C. I. O. organization. They are cooperating with the American Federation of Labor organizations in the field whenever they care to cooperate, but we have not asked any of them to join us. Mr. BROWN. And have you received any contributions? Mr. HILLMAN. We have not asked for any and we have not received any. Mr. BROWN. Then both organizations are, as far as labor is concerned, purely C. I. O.? Mr. HILLMAN. That is right. The C. I. O. Political Action Committee is purely C. I. O. Mr. BROWN. And the National Citizens? Mr. HILLMAN. Yes. Mr. BROWN. What about it? Mr. HILLMAN. They are individual citizens. Mr. BROWN. I see that Mr. Whitney has joined. Mr. HILLMAN. Mr. Whitney has joined. They can join if they want to. Mr. BROWN. How widespread is that in other labor groups? Mr. HILLMAN. I do not know of anyone outside of Mr. Whitney who has joined the Citizens Political Action Committee. Mr. BROWN. Have any members of the American Federation of Labor joined? Mr. HILLMAN. People have joined only by invitation, and we have extended no invitation to the American Federation of Labor. Mr. BROWN. Do you mean to say that this is sort of an exclusive organization? Mr. HILLMAN. As far as the formation of the Citizens Political Action Committee on the national scale is concerned, we have invited people to join. Mr. BROWN. And if you are not invited, you cannot join? Mr. HILLMAN. The sponsoring committee asks the people to join. Mr. BROWN. If you are not invited, you cannot join? Mr. HILLMAN. I say, the sponsoring committee asks people to join. Mr. BROWN. It is an invitational affair? Mr. HILLMAN. That is right. Mr. BROWN. If you are not invited you cannot join; is that it? Mr. HILLMAN. If they would ask to join, we would probably accept them. The sponsoring committee will send out letters to people in different fields and ask them to join, and those who have joined are members of the Citizens Political Action Committee. Mr. BROWN. I would not like to embarrass you by asking you if I could join, but say that the chairman should make a request or apply to join the National Citizens Political Action Committee, how would you pass upon his applicaition? Mr. HILLMAN. If you were to ask for it, we would be delighted to have you as long as you would agree to support the national ticket of Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Truman and a progressive Congress. That is all it is; nothing else. We say these are our objectives, if you care to join. Mr. BROWN. This is interesting. This is developing what I want to develop. You have formed this organization, and then you set up certain standards and the test is that you agree to do what you are going to do anyhow? Mr. HILLMAN. The Political Action Committee was organized for a purpose. Before people join us, it is fair for them to say, "To what are we obligating ourselves?" Our answer is set forth in my prepared statements: "The objectives of this committee are the election of Roosevelt and Truman and a progressive Congress. As announced by the executive committee, we shall seek to accomplish these objectives by the following means." Then follows (a), (b), (c), (d), and (e). Then, of course, if anyone wants to join after knowing that, we will be glad to have them. Mr. BROWN. Suppose we agree to those objectives. Then what? Do you have any others? Mr. HILLMAN. No; those are all that there are. Mr. BROWN. You decide whether the applicants are to be trusted or believed. Mr. HILLMAN. I am sure that you would not join us unless you agreed with us, and this is simply giving an opportunity to Republicans, Democrats, as well as nonpartisans to join an organization that is nonpartisan for the support of Roosevelt and Truman in 1944. Mr. BROWN. Mr. Hillman, you do not have any rituals or wear robes, or anything like that? Mr. HILLMAN. No. Mr. BROWN. I will pass now. Perhaps later I will want to ask three or four more questions. The CHAIRMAN. We have had handed to us some questions by Mr. Andresen of Minnesota who is not able to be here today. I think that the questions have been fairly well covered by the questions of Mr. Brown and by the attorney. EXAMINATION BY CONGRESSMAN GATHINGS Now, the next member I will recognize will be Mr. Gathings of Arkansas. Mr. GATHINGS. Mr. Hillman, in answer to a question by Mr. Brown, I believe you stated your committee did not intend to support or donate any funds to Thomas Dewey; is that correct? Mr. HILLMAN. That is correct. Mr. GATHINGS. I just want to ask you now whether the statement is true that appeared in the Washington Merry-Go-Round on the 24th of this month. Mr. Drew Pearson edits that column. He stated, I believe, that you contributed $5,000– Mr. HILLMAN. Not individually. Mr. GATHINGS. To Mr. Dewey's candidacy in 1937 for district attorney in New York State. |