I do not believe I have been very much disappointed. Whatever they have done is good enough for us.

Mr. BROWN. Without asking you about your disappointmentMr. HILLMAN. I cannot recall right now; do you want me to recall whether I was disappointed or not?

Mr. BROWN. All right, we will drop it.

Mr. HILLMAN. And you expect me to answer that question "yes" or "no"?

Mr. BROWN. We will drop the word "disappointment," and I will ask you if you know of any instance where the national C. I. O. Political Action Commitee by inference has suggested that a certain person be opposed or be endorsed, and such inference or suggestion has not been followed by the local political action committee to which it was addressed?

Mr. HILLMAN. I do not know of any inference, outside of sending out the record. That is the reason for the record. I could not honestly say to you, Mr. Congressman, what they have done. Mr. Baldwin would follow that. I have not, personally. It has not been reported to me. It is only when they ask questions that the matter Then, of course, we give them the best of our infor

comes to me.

mation.

Mr. BROWN. You do not send out any information unless it is requested?

Mr. HILLMAN. No. We send out information, make it available to them, whether it is or is not requested.

Mr. BROWN. Then it is not really just a question of waiting for somebody to ask you for your suggestions, or inferences, or whatever you may call them but you send them out first; is that it?

Mr. HILLMAN. Congressman, we have said in our statement we are making available the records of Congressmen. We have clearly stated it. and that we stand on.

Mr. BROWN. You do now, yes, sir; but a moment ago you said when they asked for it.

Mr. HILLMAN. Pardon me; it is right in our statement here. It is a part of what we consider our work-to make available the records of candidates.

Mr. BROWN. Mr. Hillman, so that you may understand my position, the reason I asked my last question is because, in your answer to my previous question, you specifically stated you sent this information out when they requested it.

Mr. HILLMAN. I personally do not know. How much information do we send out?

Mr. BALDWIN. We have compiled the records on all Members of Congress and it is in process of being sent out. If they want any other special information on an individual candidate, we will be glad to supply it and do supply it.

Mr. BROWN. But you also furnish it beforehand, generally?

Mr. BALDWIN. That is a very important part of our educational campaign; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a recess until 1:30.

(Thereupon the committee took a recess until 1:30 p. m.)

AFTER RECESS

The committee reconvened pursuant to the taking of the recess. The CHAIRMAN. The hearing will proceed with Mr. Brown continuing his examination, but I would like to wait just a moment for Mr. Church, who I assume is on his way here.

TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY HILLMAN, JOHN ABT, AND C. B. BALDWIN— Resumed

OTHER ORGANIZATIONS TO BE INVESTIGATED

The CII IRMAN. Mr. Hillman, I have checked and I find that the National Association of Manufacturers, for example, was asked the same sort of questions which were asked of your organization. But apparently the letter did not reach an official who felt himself or herself permitted to reply, and I have again presented it to the National Association of Manufacturers and hope to have a reply from that organization very soon. The very same type of information was asked.

Also, the same information has been asked of the chairman of both the Republican and Democratic National Committees, the chairman of both the Republican and Democratic congressional committees, and a number of other organizations, on which we hope to have information shortly. So that your organization will not feel itself too singled out by the time we get through.

There is an item in the report or financial statement on which, for my own information, I would like to have a little information. In the financial statement of the National Citizens' Political Action Committee, under the item of "moneys received including contributions and loans," showing contributions in the amount, roughly, of $34,000 and loans to the amount of $44,000, I am quite sure the committee would like to have, either now or later, a statement of from whom that money was borrowed; whether it was borrowed from a bank, whether it was borrowed from the treasury of the C. I. O., or one of the unions of the C. I. O., or individuals.

Mr. ABT. I can supply that information, but I can state for the record now that all of the loans and all of the contributions were from individuals; not from trade unions, or corporations.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we would like to have a list of the individuals from whom the loans were obtained.

Mr. ABT. We will supply a list.

Mr. CADI ELL. That is true also of the individual contributions account of the C. I. O. Political Action Committee?

Mr. ABT. Yes, sir.

Mr. CADDELL. In both financial statements?

Mr. ABT. Yes, sir; the same thing is true.

Mr. CADDELL. $39,500. And since that account has been frozen, you were going to list those organizations.

Mr. ABT. Yes, sir.

Mr. CADDELL. Did I understand correctly you are using funds of the C. I. O. Political Action Committee from individual contribution accounts to pay certain expenses at this time, salaries and

Mr. ABT. Yes, sir; that is correct. All of our operating expenses are paid from that account.

Mr. CADDELL. Then, if you will, furnish us with that.

Mr. ABT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now Mr. Brown will continue his examination of the witness.

ENDORSEMENT OF CANDIDATES

Mr. BROWN. Mr. Hillman, just before we adjourned for luncheon, I understood you to say that in some instances the local or district political action committees had not taken action, let us say, in line with the findings or feelings, or inferences, or suggestions, or whatever you may wish to call them, sir, of the National Political Action Committee. Could you give us some instances in which the local political action committee was at variance with the wishes, or desires, or ambitions, or aspirations of your organization?

Mr. HILLMAN. Of course, I will have to go back to the question. It is not my recollection that I stated that we have suggested to them what to do. Your question, if I recall, was, "Had I ever felt disappointed." I said I recalled some instances where we believed, after we received their recommendation, that it would be just as well for them to make no endorsement. But, of course, that was their privilege. I said that in reply to the inquiry, "Did I ever feel disappointed." Mr. BROWN. Could you give us those instances?

Mr. HILLMAN. I really could not cite any individual situation. Of course, as I said before, I do not think it would be quite fair to just single out one or two Members or candidates for Congress. I would like not to answer that-not because it would in any way embarrass me, but because I do not think an individual Congressman should be embarrassed in that manner.

Mr. BROWN. But there have been such instances?

Mr. HILLMAN. I say there have been, where the action, if we had anything to say about it, would have been different.

Mr. BROWN. Well, let us say it was not pleasing; put it that way. Mr. HILLMAN. I really did not particularly care. After all, you know, it is their affair.

Mr. BROWN. In furnishing this information and perhaps in giving these instances that we mentioned a minute ago, by what standards do you decide whether an individual is worthy of your contribution, for instance, or your support, or is unworthy of it? What is the standard by which you judge?

Mr. HILLMAN. We make no decisions. We have only made a decision and endorsement on Roosevelt and Truman. If you care for standards, I will be delighted to give them

Mr. BROWN. I notice you have contributed, and you show in the report here, considerable sums to different candidates for Congress. Mr. HILLMAN. That is right.

Mr. BROWN. What standards do you use in deciding whether your should contribute to some individual candidate?

Mr. HILLMAN. Upon the request of the local organizations, they ask for financial support, and then we make a decision, and Mr. Baldwin would be in a better position than I to answer, because it is com

pletely in his field of activities; but usually what we do is we support the decision of a group of people taken locally.

Mr. BROWN. But they certainly send you some information upon which you base your final decision, do they not?

Mr. BALDWIN. Oh, yes. They give us information on the records of the individual running for office.

Mr. BROWN. I thought you furnished them with information as to the individual running for office.

Mr. BALDWIN. There are a good many cases, Congressman Brown, where we may be supporting a candidate who has not run for office before. In that event, the information is then information more readily available to them than it is to us.

Mr. BROWN. I can understand that.

Mr. BALDWIN. Then, also, they give us information on what chances they think these people have of being successful in the election; what their standing has been on foreign policy as expressed by them, as to their standing on problems of reconversion and full employment after the war; also the resources they are supposed to have in order to conduct their own campaign-in other words, how much they actually need in the way of financial support from our organization.

Mr. BROWN. But let us take as an example some of these individuals to whom you contributed, who are already in Congress and whose records you have evidently sent to the different local Political Action Committees, as you say you do that that is your purpose as an educational campaign among other things-take one of these cases where the candidate is already in Congress and stands for reelection: What standards do you use to decide whether that candidate for Congress should be supported by your funds and your activities, or should be opposed?

Mr. BALDWIN. His stand on all important public questions and the votes he has cast during his tenure of office.

Mr. BROWN. Do you base your decision on his support of labor legislation or his opposition thereto?

Mr. BALDWIN. We base it on his support of labor legislation, his support on foreign policy, his support on anything we feel or opposition to anything we feel contributes to the general welfare of the country.

Mr. BROWN. You go further, then, than simply your interest in his labor position?

Mr. BALDWIN. Yes, sir; we do.

Mr. BROWN. You go into all of the economic phases and into his beliefs in the different types and forms of government?

Mr. BALDWIN. Not all of them. We go into the ones we consider most important, as far as this country is concerned.

Mr. BROWN. In other words, there is no limitation upon the standards you may set up or recognize.

Mr. BALDWIN. No.

Mr. BROWN. You may support a man or oppose him because of his position on some economic question that is not directly related to labor? Mr. BALDWIN. Yes; but we would not make our determination on any one question isolated from all the rest. We do not think that is a fair way to judge the record of any public servant.

Mr. BROWN. Have you at any time opposed, or supported the opponent of an individual who has a good labor voting record in Congress, but who perhaps has done something else that did not meet with your approval?

Mr. BALDWIN. I would have to refresh my memory; I would have to go over any records we might have. I just do not recall. Our policy has been to look at the entire record.

Mr. BROWN. Then it is not your policy to judge for instance, let us go back to the C. I. O. Political Action Committee, which was purely an organization, as I understand it, supported by the C. I. O. and by organized labor-in the primary, a man's qualifications for office purely from a labor standpoint?

Mr. BALDWIN. No, sir. I do not think there is any way you could possibly do that, because I do not think and our organization does not feel that you can separate labor problems from other important public questions. We do not think, for instance, you can separate them from the matter of international cooperation.

Mr. BROWN. And if a man had voted, for instance, for all labor legislation that your organization may have endorsed, and voted against some foreign policy legislation that you may have believed was right, you might possibly be against him for office and

Mr. BALDWIN. Progressive candidates have a way of having a rather consistent record; so that is a problem that seldom arises.

Mr. BROWN. A "consistent record." By that, do you mean the position taken, for instance, on foreign policy prior to the time we entered the war?

Mr. BALDWIN. It might be. We also recognize that some people changed their minds about foreign policy, as they change their minds about other things-as they changed their minds about labor legislation.

Mr. BROWN. And, for instance, a man who voted against national defense legislation and voted against other such legislation that your organization now supports, if he voted that way prior to the war, would he be on your black list, would you say?

Mr. BALDWIN. We have no black list, sir; we have no purge list. Mr. BROWN. Let us say, would that record, in your opinion, be good or bad?

Mr. BALDWIN. Well it would probably depend on his voting record since that time. I think there were many, many, of course, isolationists prior to the war. One would expect that. However, we think it would have been a very black mark on his record if he had opposed our war activities since war broke out.

Mr. BROWN. You mean by "since which war broke out"-since we entered the war?

Mr. BALDWIN. Since we entered the war; since Pearl Harbor. Mr. BROWN. Well, since Pearl Harbor, or since September 1, 1939? Which is the line of demarcation?

Mr. BALDWIN. There is no line of demarcation; there is no fine line of demarcation in any of those things.

Mr. BROWN. Of course, I am not unmindful of the fact

Mr. BALDWIN. There are a good many people, as I think you well know, Members of Congress, who changed their position in 1939;