Mr. LANDRUM. Is the plan going to be approved by some administrator according to his own rules and regulations, or does the bill itself carry the specifications for the State plan? Mr. RICHARDS. The State library agency in each State is the controlling agency in this case. They make out the State plan for their own State, which is then sent to the department of education. Mr. LANDRUM. I understand that the State makes it out. What I am driving at is does the bill require, or does the bill permit, give authority to the Federal Government or its agent to reject those plans or to approve those plans according to his own whims or caprice, or does the bill itself say how those plans are to be made? Mr. RICHARDS. The department of education approves the plan once it finds that it comes within the scope and the caliber of the bill. I don't think it can turn them down. In other words, once the plan as provided by the State is seen to be clearly within the limits of the bill, then it has to be approved, and the State goes ahead on the basis of its own plan. Mr. LANDRUM. So if the State makes a plan which comes within the requirements of this bill that we have under consideration, then the Federal agency has no alternative. Mr. RICHARDS. That is right. Mr. LANDRUM. It must approve. Mr. LANDRUM. That is the point I wanted to get in the record. In regard to the colloquy between you and the gentlewoman from Oregon a few minutes ago, does the American Library Association propose in this bill to support library service and demand that we have integrated schools where you have these library services? Mr. RICHARDS. By integrated schools you are speaking of in Southern States? Mr. LANDRUM. Yes, I certainly am. Mr. RICHARDS. Nothing in the bill bears on that at all. And my point in speaking to that question before was merely that I would assume we would handle that within the framework that we are handling library service at the present time. Mr. LANDRUM. Does "within the framework" mean that you are leaving it to the States? Mr. RICHARDS. That is right. Mr. LANDRUM. Entirely? Mr. RICHARDS. That is right. Mr. LANDRUM. And the localities? Mr. RICHARDS. That is right, completely so. Mr. LANDRUM. That is all that I have. Mr. METCALF. Would the gentleman yield to me? Mr. LANDRUM. Yes. Mr. METCALF. As I understand it then, Mr. Richards, the plan submitted can vary from State to State? Mr. RICHARDS. It would, widely. Mr. METCALF. A plan from such a State as the chairman comes from could vary from one of the State of Oregon where the Congresswoman from Oregon is from? Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. We see that as one of the strong points of the bill. Mr. METCALF. And the State would have complete jurisdiction over the implementation of this act. Mr. RICHARDS. That is right. There is no question about that. Mr. METCALF. As I understand it, the Federal Government would have no control over the books to be purchased? Mr. RICHARDS. That is right. Mr. METCALF. Or over the areas where this program was to be put into effect? Mr. RICHARDS. That is right. Mr. METCALF. Or the personnel to administer it? Mr. RICHARDS. The personnel is to be entirely employed by the State agency along the lines of the plan which it develops for its own Mr. LANDRUM. Mr. Graham, a member of the staff, would like to direct a question. Mr. GRAHAM. Would you explain what a demonstration is? Mr. RICHARDS. Yes. A demonstration is the opportunity to present in a community which does not have library service, or has very poor library service, what we consider to be good library service. And I mentioned the situation that obtains in Louisiana where the parishes have had now for several years these demonstration libraries. In other words, the State library agency moves in at State expense a demonstration for 1 year of what library service can mean to the community. At the end of that year the community takes it over, and it is completely self-supporting. Mr. GRAHAM. Then Louisiana would have no need for this. Mr. RICHARDS. I think they would. I think they have not solved all their problems. I am not completely conversant on it. I am sure they have not finished. They have done a fair job through the demonstrations on this program. Mr. GRAHAM. How many States provide that service now? Mr. RICHARDS. I can't give you those figures. We have done a little of it in the State of Washington where it has been quite successful. Of course, the problem is with the shortage of State funds. There has never been an opportunity to do it on the basis that we would like. In other words, that is why this bill at this time is so effective and so good, because it would make it possible to move into these communities that need demonstrations and finance them under the bill. Mr. GRAHAM. Why can it not be done out of local funds and State funds? Mr. RICHARDS. On local funds, of course, the problem is the question of the taxing unit. And these communities of 10,000 and less, by and large, do not have the ability to tax themselves to the extent of raising enough money to do a demonstration or to give good library service of any kind. Mrs. GREEN. Would the gentleman yield for a minute? Mr. GRAHAM. Yes. Mrs. GREEN. Going back to Louisiana, the demonstration plan is not the entire part of the picture. Mr. RICHARDS. No. Mrs. GREEN. So Louisiana would benefit by the service which would be offered by the bill or by this kind of legislation. Mr. RICHARDS. That is right. Actually this does not have to be done by demonstration. I am very sure in the State of Washington we will handle it, to some extent, by bringing in some of the very weak libraries into larger area service. But it will be the means by which we can get them started for a year or 2 years or, at the most, 5 years. Mr. GRAHAM. How many States now furnish that service? Mr. RICHARDS. Demonstration? Mr. GRAHAM. No; bringing in bookmobiles and so forth. Mr. RICHARDS. Bookmobile service is becoming more and more common. I can't give you the figures for the 48 States, but it is a very popular means of getting books to rural areas, rural people, and a very economical means of doing it. Of course, undoubtedly under this legislation, and the whole point under this legislation is that we would have many more service points established whether by bookmobile stops or by small branches, for instance, of a larger area, larger units. Mr. GRAHAM. I was just noticing the State of Illinois provides this service, and they reach some 400,000 people. And there are well over a million books going in and out. They have had that much service. I wonder how necessary it is to these States to have this Federal money. With reference to State plans, I read from the bill here that they should provide policies and methods of administration to be followed in using funds made available for expenditures under the State plans. Now then is it not up to the Commissioner of Education to determine whether or not these administrative policies and methods of administration actually fulfill the objectives of the law? Mr. RICHARDS. The State plan, as I understand it, will be presented for checking as to whether it is within the fairly liberal limits of the bill. But there would be no opportunity to require any State to meet any other conditions. In other words, each State will have complete autonomy in working out its own plan. That is basic and understood in the bill. Mr. GRAHAM. But it is still subject to the Commissioner of Education's approval of it. Mr. RICHARDS. On the basis of very wide limits of the bill itself. In other words, there must be some way in which someone can determine that the States are working within the framework of the bill. Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir. But I mean he must have to issue some sort of criteria. Mr. RICHARDS. That, as I understand the legislation, would not make it possible for him to determine the details of a plan which was needed in any particular State. In other words, the value of this legislation is that it is so that each State can work out its own problems in its own way. Mr. GRAHAM. But the matter of segregation or parochial schools could enter into the State plan Mr. RICHARDS. Each State can do anything it wants to, that is right, in regard to that matter. Mr. GRAHAM. In other words, it is not, as Mrs. Green asked, one that would prohibit that in any way? Mr. RICHARDS. May I mention that this is public library service to the people of the country, and does not involve service to schools. Now many libraries give service to schools if it is needed. But this is public library service for all the people without limitation what ever. Mrs. GREEN. If the gentleman will yield, the point which I was trying to make a while ago is that neither segregation nor the parochial question should be a part of the issue here. Mr. GRAHAM. Yes. But there is nothing to prohibit it from being in the State plan. Mrs. GREEN. That is one of the strengths of the bill, that it will be distributed according to their own State plan. Mr. GRAHAM. But they may provide for segregation. Mrs. GREEN. The same as they do now with their State or local funds. Mr. RICHARDS. (Reading from the bill, section (b)) : The Commissioner shall approve any plan which fulfills the conditions specified in subsection (a) of this section. Mr. LANDRUM. Do you have anything further? Mr. GRAHAM. I had just one question more. Would you please furnish for the committee the total expenditure in dollars per annum for library services; and by States, if posssible? Mr. RICHARDS. Let me make sure I have that. You mean total expenditures for public library service per year by State? Mr. GRAHAM. No. For the services that would be encompassed in this bill, that would be augmented by this bill. Mr. RICHARDS. I think perhaps I have something here that partially answers your question. I have this chart to give out, a breakdown of the allocations by States under the bill, and I will turn this over. Mr. GRAHAM. I wanted to have a breakdown by States for the amount that is presently being spent per year by the States for the services, and which would be augmented by the funds from this bill. Mr. RICHARDS. The only point there is that each State will be different under the bill. Each State will have its own plan. Mr. GRAHAM. It has nothing to do with the plan or anything like that. It has to do with what is being presently spent per annum. Mr. RICHARDS. All right. Mr. GRAHAM. By States. Mr. RICHARDS. We have this chart which I gave you earlier of the operating expenditures per capita for local public library service. Mr. GRAHAM. I mean in dollars and cents per annum. Mr. RICHARDS. I have the chart here. Mr. GRAHAM. Could you furnish that for the record? (The table referred to follows:) |