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ards and policies, we feel the insistence on State and local autonomy, public and voluntary, may be inimical to the success of the enforcement of such standards.

In bill S. 712, the approach is one that is preferable to a strictly devised legislation such as S. 140.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?

Senator HOEY. This Consumer Section you suggest would perform such services as your organization, with reference to advising consumers?

Mrs. NETREBA. I doubt if we would do the same thing. There would be similar interests. However, the Consumer Bureau would be concerned only with consumer products.

Senator HOEY. I understood you to say your organization undertook to advise about goods, whether they were union-made, et cetera. Do you undertake to advise your members that certain goods are made by unions and certain goods are not?

Do you give them advice about that?

Mrs. NETREBA. Actually, our connection there with the unions is this: Where there is a strike in a particular organization, then we attempt to investigate both sides of the strike. For instance, in the hotel strike here in Washington, we sent people out to investigate the story on both sides of the question. Then, after a meeting, we decided that the employees in the hotel strike were the people who were right in this case, in our estimation, and we supported them.

Now, actually it isn't a question of going out and saying this dress is union-made and this is not, buy this one don't buy that one.

Senator HOEY. What would you do about that? You have determined from your investigation that one side is right. Then, what steps do you take?

Mrs. NETREBA. We have a biweekly bulletin that goes out, and it informs our members of things that we have investigated or talked about or are doing.

Senator HOEY. If you think the employer is wrong about a strike, would you advise them to boycott the employer?

Mrs. NETREBA. In this case we didn't advise crossing the picket line; no, sir.

Senator HOEY. What did you say?

Mrs. NETREBA. We did not advise crossing the picket line.

Senator HOEY. You were opposed to that?

Mrs. NETREBA. Yes.

Senator HOEY. For instance, if an employer is making goods and he has a strike and you look into it and decide that he is wrong, would you notify your members and advise them not to buy his goods? Mrs. NETREBA. I think that is the procedure.

Senator HOEY. That is a boycott?

Mrs. NETREBA. Yes.

Senator HOEY. That is what your organization is for?

Mrs. NETREBA. That is not all our activities. That is just one of them.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?

If not, thank you, Mrs. Netreba.

(The following matter was presented for the record :)

Senator GEORGE D. AIKEN,

THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN SHOPPERS, INC.,
New York 10, N. Y., March 25, 1947.

Chairman, Senate Committee on Expenditures in the Executive Departments, Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C.

DEAR SENATOR AIKEN: In order to explain more fully the purposes and policies of our organization and to clarify any misconceptions which may have arisen in our testimony before your committee on March 20, we wish to add the following statement:

The League of Women Shoppers is an organization of housewives and professional women, with branches in many parts of the country, whose purposes are to raise the standard of living for all members of our society. Since women are about 80 percent of the buying public, we feel that the wise and responsible allocation of this purchasing power can contribute to raising living standards and encouraging sound, democratic processes. We urge our members to "use your purchasing power for justice," which is our official slogan, and provide them with pertinent information that would aid them in doing so.

We recognize, however, that a wise disposition of purchasing power alone is not sufficient. We support, therefore, legislation that helps raise the standard of living. Nothing could be of more direct importance to us as women, mothers, and citizens than a Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

We are interested, as consumers, in retaining and expanding consumer-interests. These include protection afforded by the Government against fraudulent and misleading claims and unfair business practices and by grade labeling. We would like to see official representation of consumers in evaluating the impact of various programs undertaken by the Government upon consumer interests. We feel that these might suitably be housed in a proposed Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

Respectfully,

KATHARINE ARMATAGE, Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Next we will call Mrs. Richard J. Bernhard, of the National Child Labor Committee.

STATEMENT OF MRS. RICHARD J. BERNHARD, VICE CHAIRMAN, BOARD OF TRUSTEES, NATIONAL CHILD LABOR COMMITTEE, NEW YORK, N. Y.

Mrs. BERNHARD. The National Child Labor Committee favors the establishment of a Federal Department of Health, Education, and Security, and supports S. 712 in preference to S. 140 to create this Department.

The National Child Labor Committee's activities relate primarily to the welfare of children but the committee has learned from long experience that the welfare of children is inextricably bound up with the welfare of the population as a whole. The committee therefore believes that the coordination of health, education, and welfare services in the Federal Security Agency, accomplished through Executive order, should now be carried one step farther to give the Agency the status in the Government that is justified by the importance of its functions and the size of its expenditures.

The committee supports S. 712 to create this Department in preference to S. 140 because people's needs cannot be departmentalized by law and S. 712 makes no attempt to do so. Under S. 712, the Secretary would, it is assumed, have the full authority, essential to good administration, to organize the work of the Department in any way that would promote coordination and efficiency of services, and to

revise the organization plan if experience should show that it can be improved. If this authority is not implied, however, we would favor an amendment to S. 712, specifically providing that the Department shall include such offices, bureaus, and divisions as the Secretary shall find necessary or desirable to carry out the duties of the Department but not specifying what such divisions and bureaus shall be.

Senator FERGUSON. You believe, then, that the authority should be in effect unlimited along that line, that he could establish different bureaus and different agencies?

Mrs. BERNHARD. Within the Department; yes.

Senator FERGUSON. What would be the limitation as to his functions? Mrs. BERNHARD. I think that would be set up in the law. You have the preamble and philosophy of the law.

Senator FERGUSON. Rather than in the creation of the post?

Mrs. BERNHARD. Yes; rather than within the administrative set-up. The CHAIRMAN. You don't advocate his having the power to set up agencies not authorized by law?

Mrs. BERNHARD. Certainly not.

Senator FERGUSON. May I inquire as to what the National Child Labor Committee is?

Mrs. BERNHARD. It is a voluntary organization, organized in 1904 and established by a special act of Congress in 1907. It has always been interested in the child-labor field and realizes that child labor and general child welfare are closely related.

Senator FERGUSON. What connection has it with other labor movements?

Mrs. BERNHARD. None whatsoever.

Senator FERGUSON. It is an independent organization?

Mrs. BERNHARD. It is an independent organization and has only individual members. It has no group membership.

Senator FERGUSON. Will you explain that, please?

Mrs. BERNHARD. It has 17,000 individual members throughout the United States but no group memberships.

Senator FERGUSON. How is it supported?
Mrs. BERNHARD. By private contributions.

Senator FERGUSON. Are they treated as charity contributions?
Mrs. BERNHARD. They are tax-exempt.

Senator FERGUSON. Does it come under the various community funds where it raises its money?

Mrs. BERNHARD. Yes, and it raises it individually all over the country.

May I continue, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, proceed.

Mrs. BERNHARD. S. 140, on the other hand, by freezing departmental structure into the law and specifying the appointment of three Under Secretaries for each of the Departments of Health, Education, and Security, would seriously interfere with the administrative responsibility of the Secretary and tend to separation instead of integration of services. Since the whole purpose of bringing health, education, and security services together under the Federal Security Agency was to promote integration and coordination, it would be a mistake, in the opinion of the National Child Labor Committee, to curtail, by specifications in the law establishing it as a Federal Department, the broad powers needed to accomplish this.

It is impossible to know at this time what the future scope and activities of this new Federal Department may be but what we do know is that there is a very close relationship and even overlapping of the fields of health, education and security which would be assigned to it. Therefore the aim should be, not to compartmentalize and de-. fine more closely the separateness of these three activities and functions, but rather to establish a basis for a closer relationship. For example, if a school health program becomes a subject for Federal legislation-as proposed-it is clearly a direct interest of those concerned with health, with education, and with the needs of children, i. e., the Children's Bureau.

In addition to writing a specific organization into the bill, S. 140 also writes specific policies into the bill which we likewise believe to be unwise. There are many controversial matters in the fields of health, education, and welfare, and decisions as to the most desirable policies should be made only after experience and study of the methods used and their results. For example, the Secretary is directed to standardize procedures for the various grants-in-aid programs to permit a State agency receiving more than one grant to submit a single plan of operation. Procedures for some programs with common requirements can be standardized and it is unnecessary to instruct the Secretary by law to do so. However, there are Federal grants with a wide variety of requirements in the three fields of health, education, and security which are administered by different State departments. Some grants-in-aid should be entirely free of Federal control (such as Federal aid to education, if passed), while others should be dependent upon the observance of specified Federal standards. Some are grants in the form of direct monetary grants to individuals, while others are for the development of services within the States. Some require matching by the States and others do not. These variations clearly indicate the need for departmental responsibility in establishing policies for standards and procedures unhampered by directions in the law.

The administrative policies laid down for the Department in S. 140 also specify that the objectives of promoting the general welfare [reading]:

shall be carried out to the fullest possible extent through State and local agencies, public and voluntary, and in such manner as to preserve and protect to the highest possible degree the independence and autonomy of State and local agencies, public and voluntary, in education, health, security, and related fields.

Cooperation of Federal, State, local, and voluntary agencies in the promotion of health and welfare is an important objective and no one wants those agencies taken over by the Federal Government under grants-in-aid programs. But a legal directive [reading]:

to preserve and protect to the highest possible degree the independence and autonomy of State and local agencies, public and voluntary

sounds ominously like an invitation to pressure from these agencies to receive Federal funds for the support of their programs with no strings attached.

Senator O'CONOR. May I interrupt you at that point?

Mrs. BERNHARD. Yes.

Senator O'CONOR. Why do you think that? That is, that statement

you just made.

Mrs. BERNHARD. The reason that I think that is because I think it is most important for the Federal agencies to set certain standards, and I think the Secretary should be free to make those rules and regulations and administrative policies as the Department is set up and not hamper it by a directive before it is even established.

Senator O'CONOR. You are not in favor of the independence and autonomy of State agencies?

Mrs. BERNHARD. I am in favor of the independence of State agencies, but we want to see how this works out in a department rather than limit it from its inception.

Senator O'CONOR. Are you in favor of the utilization of them?

Mrs. BERNHARD. I think they are both essential and absolutely

necessary.

Senator FERGUSON. Could you tell me when you use "we" in this testimony if you are speaking for the board?

Mrs. BERNHARD. I am speaking for the board of the National Child Labor Committee, not the membership.

Senator FERGUSON. Just the board?

Mrs. BERNHARD. That is right.

Senator FERGUSON. Could you just tell the committee how you arrived at that testimony? Did the board have a meeting?

Mrs. BERNHARD. The board had a meeting, the subcommittee met and then the subcommittee reported back to the board, and the board endorsed this statement.

Senator FERGUSON. Are you from Washington?

Mrs. BERNHARD. From New York City.

Senator FERGUSON. The board, I assume, met in New York?

Mrs. BERNHARD. It met in New York. Its headquarters are there. Senator FERGUSON. It studied both bills?

Mrs. BERNHARD. Yes.

Senator FERGUSON. It is not a view of the membership?

Mrs. BERNHARD. They were not consulted. No, it isn't.

Senator FERGUSON. Have you an advisory board? Will you tell us how many are on this board?

Mrs. BERNHARD. I think there are 25.

Senator FERGUSON. How would this law affect your particular agency?

Mrs. BERNHARD. It wouldn't affect our particular agency at all. Senator FERGUSON. Could you work through it as one of the voluntary agencies?

Mrs. BERNHARD. We are not a functioning agency and do not carry out any programs ourselves, other than to work in the fields of child labor and child protection in the various States.

Senator FERGUSON. Will you clarify that, please?

Mrs. BERNHARD. We have always been interested in the field of protection in child labor.

Senator FERGUSON. Do you mean safety devices, et cetera?

Mrs. BERNHARD. Protection for the working ages of minors and the kind of work in which they can engage, and we do a promotion job. We do not do the work ourselves, but we work through the committees in various States, and we recommend certain legislative bills.

Senator FERGUSON. If this became law, would you function any differently than you are?

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