Those agencies are usually completely separate, and they are separate in nature.

I did not like the idea of having one Under Secretary under the Cabinet officer through whom the health, welfare, and education would have to channel going up to the Cabinet officer. It seemed to me that they ought to be able to go directly to the Cabinet officer in each case because of the fact that if you get this Under Secretary, he is a more or less anonymous figure who may be a welfare man completely, bossing health and education, or he may be a health man bossing welfare, and so forth. So, I insisted when we introduced it, that these three departments be kept separate-that each of the Under Secretaries report directly to the Cabinet officer-and that is the plan of the bill which Senator Fulbright and I introduced.

I do not know that I have any more to say, except that these interests have become of greater and greater concern. The Federal Government, in my opinion, is going to have to extend more Federal aid in those fields, leaving, according to my theories, the complete administration in the States, but prescribing certain standards as the basis for Federal aid.

I believe very strongly that they ought not to be out by themselves running an independent game, but they ought to be tied right into the President's administration, and they ought to have a representative in the Cabinet.

I believe the Federal Security Agency and the Federal Loan Agency floating around in midair has not been a good Government organization, and it seems to me that matters of that kind should have a department of the Government.

I do not see why it would mean any more bureaucratic organization or any greater expense than already exists. In fact, I should think such a man might assume more responsibility toward coordinating the work, getting the health staff assigned all to health, welfare to welfare, and education to education, than if you do not have a depart

ment.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think the difference in administrative costs, if any, would be so slight that it would not be a major matter of consideration?

Senator TAFT. That is my view. Of course, everybody wants a building, but you will have these independent agencies coming in wanting buildings anyway, so I do not think that question is going to

arise.

if

The CHAIRMAN. They may want separate administration buildings you do not get them under one roof.

Senator IVES. Senator Taft, I do not like to interrupt.

Senator TAFT. Go right ahead. I have no special prepared state

ment.

Senator IVES. I am a little bit foggy on this business of coordination here. You have this National Health Agency which is set up in one bill, the head of which will receive $15,000, and then you are going to have this other combination in the executive branch of the Government in which there will be an Under Secretary receiving $12,000. Where does all this fit together? I do not quite get it.

Senator TAFT. My theory would be, if we seriously are going ahead with the department, that I would like to conform the provisions for the Under Secretary of Health to the National Health Agency bill myself before it is finally reported out. If the committee looks with favor on the idea of a department, then I have to conform my other bill. I mean, I have to bring the National Health Agency into it.

The National Health Agency bill was prepared on the basis of the present set-up of the Government without a department and intended. to set up a National Health Agency reporting directly to the President-and getting $15,000. I would like to pay the Under Secretary of Health $15,000 too, if that could be done, as far as that is concerned. Senator IVES. Then, your idea is just to fit your other bill into the pending departmental bill if it is enacted?

Senator TAFT. That is right. I had to prepare the National Health Agency bill on the theory that there was no department. It had to be independent. But, my idea would be to revise that bill. That has many other matters in it, of course, and you would have to revise that to make it deal with the Under Secretary of Health rather than with the head of the National Health Agency.

Senator IVES. The other bill would come under the Under Secretary of Health if the departmental bill should prevail?

Senator TAFT. That is right. Would move in. And, insofar as we deal with the head of the National Health Agency, he would become the Under Secretary of Health, and that would become part of the new department.

Senator O'CONOR. Senator Taft, might I ask your opinion on this phase of the matter? I might say that our State Department of Health in Maryland is in favor of your bill, the bill of Senator Fulbright and yourself, but one question has arisen among certain of the doctors in the medical faculty. That is whether or not you would feel it safe to place scientific and medical programs under a lay secretary.

Senator TAFT. The doctors, of course, are very much concerned about the separation of health under a doctor. They do not have it now, and I am anxious to give it to them. But, whether that doctor running the department of health reports direct to the President or to a lay secretary, as you call it, I do not think makes any differ

ence.

I certainly think we can count on the President to put in his Cabinet a man of sufficiently broad interest so he would not favor health or welfare or education. I did not feel so confident about a general under secretary. That is why I thought the under secretaries of each of these three things ought to report to the new Cabinet officer.

But, of course, I would not mind, perhaps, creating three departments, although that seems to me rather a big step to take at one time. In time, if these functions develop, we might have to have three departments, but at the present time it seems to me the purpose of representation in the Cabinet would be secured by this combination of three things.

Senator O'CONOR. On the second point that Senator Ives raisedSenator TAFT (interposing). The doctors are still afraid in some way, as I get it, if you have a Secretary in the Cabinet, that he would be a welfare man and he would not favor health sufficiently. Well, I think if we make it clear that the Under Secretary of Health is almost like an independent officer, except when you come to budget questions, you would not have welfare bossing health or health, welfare, or either of them bossing education.

Senator O'CONOR. On the other point Senator Ives asked you about, I had the same question as to whether, if S. 140 is to be adopted, certain provisions of S. 545 could not be embodied in S. 140 so as to keep all of it in the same bill. Do you think that might be possible?

Senator TAFT. Yes; if the Senate passes this bill, I certainly would change the other bill to conform to it.

Senator O'CONOR. It occurred to me it probably could be brought under S. 140.

Senator TAFT. I think it ought to be coordinated as you go on, when it turns out what the Senator wants to do.

Senator IVES. Senator, you have a provision in the one bill that the Under Secretary of Health be a physician. I can see very readily the reasons which may be advanced for that, but that would be an administrative post. Now, I do not question the capacity of physicians to be fine administrators, but I am just wondering if the administrative angle is not fully as important as the angle of the physician there.

Senator TAFT. Well, my feeling is, of course, that that question is always raised on the doctors, and they feel very strongly about it. There is no question but that the Attorney General of the United States is always a lawyer, and that is an administrative post too. We point to that as an example.

The CHAIRMAN. We never had a major general as the Secretary of War.

Senator TAPT. No; that is a different field. But in the field of the professions, where you have a professional field, I think it is fair to ask that you find an administrator who is a doctor. That is what it comes to.

Senator IVES. The reason I raised the point is I happen to know of a set-up where that was provided in the statute, and where there was considerable difficulty in obtaining a doctor who was a good administrator.

Senator TAFT. I think that might be true, but it seems to me if you have the whole field of the United States of America to cover, and some 180,000 doctors, you ought to find a good administrator among them.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions to ask Senator Taft? (No response.)

We thank you for your testimony this morning.

(Senate bill S. 545 referred to by Senator Taft is as follows:)

[S. 545, 80th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To coordinate the health functions of the Federal Government in a single agency; to amend the Public Health Service Act for the following purposes: To expand the activities of the Public Health Service; to promote and encourage medical and dental research in the National Institute of Health and through grants-in-aid to the States; to construct in the National Institute of Health a dental research institute; and for other purposes

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That this Act may be cited as the "National Health Act of 1947."

SEC. 2. The Congress hereby finds and declares-

(a) That health and medical functions are widely scattered through many agencies in the Federal Government with resultant confusion and duplication of effort, and that because of this diffuse organization State health administrators and other State officials find it necessary to submit plans and budgets to numerous Federal officials responsible for health programs authorized under a large number of unrelated statutes;

(b) That there are inadequacies in the distribution of public health services and of medical and dental services in the United States, with the result that some persons are unable to secure adequate health and medical services;

(c) That it is the policy of the United States to aid the States, through consultative services and grants-in-aid, to make available medical, hospital, dental, and public-health services to every individual regardless of race or economic status; and

(d) That it is the further policy of the United States to make provision for voluntary deductions from the salary of Federal employees of premiums directed by them to be paid to voluntary nonprofit health-insurance funds.

SEC. 3. When used in this Act the terms defined in section 2 of the Public Health Service Act, as amended, shall have the same meaning as in that Act, as amended.

TITLE I-NATIONAL HEALTH AGENCY

SEC. 101. (a) There is hereby created in the executive branch of the Government an independent agency to be known as the National Health Agency, which shall be administered by a National Health Administrator, who shall be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and who shall receive compensation at the rate of $15,000 per annum.

(b) The Administrator shall cause an official seal to be made for the Agency of such device as the President shall approve, and judicial notice shall be taken thereof.

(c) The Administrator, who shall engage in no other business, vocation, or employment, shall be a citizen of the United States and a doctor of medicine licensed to practice in one or more of the States and who is outstanding in the field of medicine.

SEC. 102. (a) It shall be the purpose of the Agency to promote the general welfare of the people of the United States by aiding and fostering progress throughout the Nation in the field of health and medicine and by centralizing in the Agency the activities of the Feedral Government relating to health. (b) To carry out the purposes of subsection (a) the Agency shall—

(1) encourage the development throughout the Nation of health services and facilities;

(2) advise and cooperate with other agencies and departments of the Federal Government, and with State governments and agencies, and with private agencies functioning in the field of health;

(3) collect and analyze statistics and make studies, investigations, and reports on conditions, problems, and needs in the field of health in the United States and in other countries, and disseminate and make available information in this field;

(4) make reports and recommendations with respect to the most efficient policies and methods for the promotion of health and related services; and

(5) carry out such specific duties as may be entrusted to it by this and subsequent enactment of Congress, and exercise general supervision over the agencies transferred to it pursuant to section 103.

(c) The Agency shall have responsibility for Federal governmental activities concerned with

(1) the administration of funds appropriated as grants to States for medical and hospital care, dental care, hospital faciilties, and all other health activities;

(2) the prevention of disease through water purification, sewage treatment, and the elimination of lake and stream pollution, and promotion of research toward this end;

(3) the promotion of maternal, prenatal, and child care, and the study and dissemination of information on child growth, development, and nutrition;

(4) the protection of the national health by promoting purity, standard potency, and truthful and informative labeling of foods, drugs, and cosmetics; (5) the training and rehabilitation of persons vocationally handicapped because of permanent disability with the objective of placing such persons in remunerative employment; and

(6) the administration of the Hospital Survey and Construction Act of August 13, 1946; and

(7) such related matters as shall aid the States and the people of the United States in the maintenance of adequate and efficient health facilities and otherwise promote the national health.

(d) Nothing in this section shall be deemed to grant to the Agency or to any constitutent unit thereof any powers, functions, or duties other than those transferred pursuant to subsections 103 (a) and (b).

(e) Nothing in this title shall be deemed to transfer to the Agency any powers, functions, or duties exercised by the Army, the Navy, or the Veterans' Administration.

SEC. 103. (a) Upon the effective date of this title, as provided in section 108, there are hereby transferred to the Agency the following agencies, and their functions, powers, and duties: The Public Health Service, Saint Elizabeths Hospital, and the Food and Drug Administration.

(b) Upon the effective date of this title, as provided in section 108, there are hereby transferred to the Agency the functions and duties of the Children's Bureau in the Social Security Administration concerned with the administration of title V, parts 1 and 2, of the Social Security Act, as amended, and the functions and duties of the Division of Health Studies in the Bureau of Research and Statistics of the Social Security Administration.

(c) Upon the transfers provided for in subsections (a) and (b) all laws relating to any agency or function transferred shall, insofar as such laws are not inapplicable, remain in full force and effect. Any transfer of personnel pursuant to this title shall be without change in classification or compensation, except that this requirement shall not operate to prevent the adjustment of classification or compensation to conform to the duties which may be assigned to such transferred personnel. All orders, rules, regulations, permits, or other privileges made, issued, or granted by any agency, or in connection with the functions, so transferred, and in effect at the time of the transfer, shall continue in effect to the same extent as if such transfer had not occurred, until modified, superseded, or repealed. No suit, action, or other proceeding lawfully commenced by or against any agency or any officer of the United States acting in his official capacity shall abate by reason of any transfer made pursuant to this title, but the court, on motion or supplemental petition filed at any time wihin twelve months after such transfer takes effect, showing necessity for a survival of such suit, action, or other proceeding to obtain a settlement of the questions involved, may allow the same to be maintained by or against the appropriate agency or officer of the United States.

(d) All personnel and property (including office equipment and records) of the agencies which are transferred under subsection (a) shall be transferred to the Agency.

(e) The personnel primarily concerned with, and the property (including office equipment and records) used in connection with the functions transferred to the Agency under subsection (b) shall be transferred to the Agency.