1.

2.

Not to exceed a caliber of 17 inches, or 431.7 mm. for any kind of cannon.
That the length of cannon be fixed at a maximum of 45 calibers.

3. That the initial velocity does not exceed 3000 feet, or 914 meters.

4. For armor plates the maximum thickness will be 14 inches, or 355 mm., and of the same quality as that manufactured according to the latest Krupp patent.

The President observes that this new proposition, by introducing new figures, acquires a much more precise character; at a previous meeting the general opinion was not in favor of too determinate limits; personally he prefers them, for the pledge to be given would gain thereby in value and significance. [69] He thinks he must consult again the delegates in regard to the figures proposed by the delegate from Russia.

Admiral Péphau thinks that the amendment of Mr. SCHEINE is very extensive and complex. In it are mentioned four different factors: caliber, length, initial velocity, and thickness of armor plate. According to him, each of these factors should be voted on separately.

Colonel Coanda objects to the proposition of placing limits only on the initial velocity, as this appears insufficient to him; in limiting the velocity, the weight of the projectile ought also to be fixed, in order that the initial force may be calculated.

The limit imposed by fixing the length of the cannon depends on the powder used. If therefore only the initial velocity is limited, and on the other hand the maximum resistance for the armor plate is fixed, this would be dooming the armor plate in advance to be overcome.

Captain Scheine says that the weight of the projectiles is to a certain extent limited by the initial velocity. If it is desired to increase the weight of the projectiles without diminishing the range, it will be necessary also to increase the initial velocity.

Colonel Coanda remarks that then we shall fire a shorter distance or with somewhat less precision and that nevertheless we shall then succeeed in perforating the armor plates.

The President thinks the proposition should be voted on as a whole, because there is a necessary correlation between the different calibers. He successively consults the delegates.

Captain Siegel declares that it is impossible for him to indorse the proposition

of Mr. SCHEINE.

The question, being too complex, requires a thorough study, especially in order to appreciate the correlation between the various figures and in order to fix the relations between the resistance of the armor plate and the power of the

cannon.

Captain Mahan is of the same opinion.

Count Soltyk says he can not accept the responsibility of expressing an opinion without obtaining the view of his Government.

Moreover, he agrees with Admiral PÉPHAU that the study of such a problem ought to be referred to a technical committee and that a solution will not be obtained in a short time.

Mr. Bille thinks the question is of too technical a nature for him to be able to pass an opinion on it. Nevertheless, his Government would endorse whatever decision secured unanimity of votes.

Admiral Péphau and Count de Serrallo declare also that they can not pledge themselves right now as to Mr. SCHEINE'S proposition, the question being too complex.

Admiral Péphau remarks moreover that the question of the armor plates is not sufficient since new processes might be invented which, with less thickness, would lend greater resistance to armor plates.

The President thinks that, without claiming positively that it is impossible to arrive at an understanding regarding the formulas presented by Mr. SCHEINE, the delegates deem it absolutely necessary to submit the question to a technical examination in each country. He therefore proposes that the discussion be deferred until a subsequent meeting.

Captain Sakamoto expresses a fear that, in view of the remoteness of his country, it might be that the results of a technical investigation begun in Japan on this complex question would not reach him until after the Confer

ence.

The President makes an appeal to the delegates in order to attain a result before the end of the Conference, that is, within a few weeks, even if it is necessary to wait until the last plenary sessions in order to receive the opinions of the various Governments or at least a majority of them; it would be regrettable to allow this opportunity to pass of approaching the principal purpose which it was desired to attain, namely, a relief of the budgets.

He asks whether the delegates think they can still receive in time the answers of their Governments.

Captain Scheine asks that the delegates kindly transmit his proposition to their Governments, and ask information at the same time as to the figures which these Governments would be willing to adopt in case the afore-mentioned figures should not suit them.

The President deems that it would be useful to proceed thus; and he requests the delegates to ask their Governments whether they would be willing to assume a pledge limited by figures in case the figures proposed by Russia should appear acceptable to them, and to ask them to let them know what figures they would like to substitute in their stead.

In connection with a remark by Admiral Sir JOHN FISHER, the President [70] says that, according to him, it is evident that a limitation of the power of cannon and armor plates of war-ships should also be applicable to land batteries for the defense of roadsteads and ports.

The PRESIDENT reverts to No. 3 of the circular of Count MOURAVIEFF. He calls attention to the fact that when it is a question of already existing explosives of a formidable power, the subcommission was of opinion that the expression "to limit the use" contemplates a limitation of the cases in which it will be possible to use these explosives.

The PRESIDENT asks Mr. SCHEINE whether he has any proposition to make in this regard.

Captain Scheine thinks that No. 3 of the circular relates rather to land warfare. The subcommission partakes of this view.

The President, after asking the reporter to kindly take note in his report of these different conclusions, again invites Mr. SCHEINE to accurately define the proposition which he made at the previous meeting concerning the admission of the agents of neutral countries on the scene of the naval war.

Captain Scheine says that he maintains his proposition save a modification of the word "right" into “privilege."

The President asks Mr. SCHEINE whether he desires to assimilate the position of the afore-mentioned agents to that of military attachés in land wars.

After an exchange of views in this regard, which was participated in by Count Soltyk, Admiral Péphau, Mr. Bille, and Admiral Sir John Fisher, the President states that it is shown from the opinions expressed that it is a question here of the admission of agents who are situated on the vessels of one of the belligerents, but that usages and practices vary in the different countries in regard to this subject, and that it is desired to remain free to reach a determination in each case, according to circumstances.

The subcommission does not believe that this matter is within its competency and does not wish to take it under further consideration.

The President remarks that the program of this subcommission is exhausted and he requests the reporter to kindly prepare his report.

Count Soltyk asks that his report be read at a coming meeting of the subcommission before being read at a plenary meeting of the commission.

The President joins in this request and proposes that the reading of the minutes of to-day's meeting be postponed until the same meeting.

Captain Scheine proposes again to the subcommission to examine whether it would not be possible in time of peace to cover over the rams of war vessels in order to lessen the danger presented by vessels with rams to other vessels in case of collision.

After an exchange of views between Sir John Fisher and Messrs. Siegel, Mahan, Sakamoto, and Scheine, it is ascertained that the means which might be used for this purpose are still too vaguely known to be discussed, and the President states that mention will be made in the minutes of the desire expressed by the subcommission to see the purpose suggested by Mr. SCHEINE accomplished. As to the question proposed by Mr. SIEGEL as to whether it is still necessary to make inquiries of the Governments in regard to the prohibition of projectiles containing asphyxiating gases and regarding submarine torpedoes, the PRESIDENT declares that in his opinion there is no need of reverting to these questions. The PRESIDENT will convoke the members for the next meeting. The meeting adjourns.

FIFTH MEETING

JUNE 16, 1899

Jonkheer van Karnebeek presiding.

The minutes of the last meeting of June 5 are read and approved.

At the request of the PRESIDENT, Captain of Corvette Count Soltyk reads his report.

In terminating, he invites those of his colleagues who might wish to have [71] a modification made in the terms in which he has related their opinions to kindly communicate their desires.

The President, in the name of himself and his secretaries, thanks the reporter for the sentiments which he was pleased to express and which the subcommission endorsed.

Acting as spokesman for the subcommission, and in his own name, he wishes to warmly thank Count SOLTYK for the eminent manner in which he has discharged his very difficult task.

He asks whether the delegates desire to see any changes introduced in the report.

Captain Sakamoto asks that, on page 2, paragraph 4, where mention is made of his question regarding the meaning of the definition of the term "new type,' the words "now already invented but not yet adopted" be changed to "not yet invented at the present time."

The President states that the terms of the report correspond to those of the minutes of the first meeting, approved with the consent of Mr. SAKAMOTO.

Mr. Raffalovich insists that a special mention be made in the present minutes of the request of Mr. SAKAMOTO, which tends to modify an opinion expressed by him and embodied in the minutes.

Captain Mahan, after declaring that the modification desired by Mr. SAKAMOTO is in accord with the opinion that he had wished to express himself on the same question, Count SOLTYK and the subcommission adopt the proposed modification.

Mr. MAHAN asks permission to change, both in the minutes approved May 31 and in the report of Count SOLTYK, the expression "or uselessly cruel" into "cruel without being decisive." (See his opinion as to projectiles charged with

asphyxiating gases.)

The change is adopted.

In concert with the reporter, some slight modifications are furthermore made in the report, which will be reprinted, taking into account the observations which have been made.

Baron Bildt asks whether the subcommission does not intend to pass to-day on the last propositions of Mr. SCHEINE, relating to cannon, powders, and armor

plates, in regard to which it had been decided to ask instructions from the Governments.

The President remarks that it had been understood that this question should be left open until the end of the Conference; in the general opinion of the delegates it requires a special study by the technical experts of the various Governments.

It would be a very happy result with a view to relieving budgets if, at the final meeting, it were possible to come to an agreement on a positive proposition in regard to naval armaments.

Baron Bildt thinks that it ought to be stated in the minutes and in the report to what conclusion the subcommission has come on this question.

The President remarks that the minutes and the summary report appear to him clear and explicit in this regard.

Consequently it is decided that paragraph 6, page 4, of the report shall be drawn up as follows:

Being therefore unable to secure a solution until a technical examination has been made in each country, the subcommission decides to postpone the discussion to a subsequent period in order to await the decision of the respective Governments, which the delegates have promised to ask for.

The PRESIDENT says it is well understood that the question may be discussed anew at a meeting either of the First Commission in session or at a meeting of the plenary Conference, or even at a subsequent meeting of the subcommission, which might be called for this purpose.

Upon the proposition of Mr. Scheine, the delegates will make known to the president or to the bureau the answers of their Governments as fast as they are received.

Admiral Fisher congratulates the president for the competency he has shown, in the difficult deliberations of this subcommission, which often had to render impossibilities possible, as well as for the perseverance with which he has endeavored to attain positive results.

Captain Siegel endorses the words spoken by Sir JOHN FISHER. (Unanimous applause.)

Mr. van Karnebeek thanks Admiral FISHER for his kind words and all the members for their benevolent and useful cooperation.

The meeting adjourns.