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exploit to the fullest the fact they are only a grade school graduate and nothing more. They can do a good job with their hands.

Mr. LUDINGTON. This is a personal observation in recent years-I feel more people, educators and noneducators, laymen, business, and industrial people, are beginning to be interested and actively concerned about quality vocational and technical education. We have gone through a period—we still have it in all too many communitieswhere vocational education is second-class education.

My contention is we have to have quality education on the academic side, and quality education on the vocational-technical side.

VOCATIONAL EDUCATION FOR WOMEN

Mr. Flood. I have the definite impression-this is historic and not your fault—that you have neglected entirely the whole female sector of our population in this area of vocational training, which is not the case in most European countries. I know the history of our country, but I also know during World Wars I and II hundreds of thousands of jobs were held in the plants and factories by women. I am advised their performance and quality was as good as the men under all kinds of conditions.

Mr. LUDINGTON. Right.

Mr. Flood. I clearly feel because of the attitude and the history in our country toward the female sex in this type of operation, that you are not making an effort. There is no understanding of this void.

I do not think this is proper with what we are faced with ahead. You are not bringing the female into this whole program. You are making no effort to.

Mr. LUDINGTON. I would say it is a national problem. Many interests and concerns are involved. You are exactly right. I think our history has been bleak in this respect.

I would say as time goes on, we are recognizing the fact that women, as you have indicated, can perform well in most any of these occupations.

Mr. Flood. There has been a resistance in the history of our country against this. Mr. LUDINGTOX. Right. Mr. Flood. A strong resistance against it. It is someone's duty, and I would presume it is yours, to initiate on a broader scale than exists now, an educational program to break down this barrier and to reach out and embrace this potential.

PHASEOUT OF WORK-TRAINING PROGRAM

Mr. MICHEL. Noting the cutback in the funds for the work-study program, or the phaseout of this program as it is gradually assumed by the Neighborhood Youth Corps, will you tell us what functions of the work-study program will be assumed by the Neighborhood Youth Corps, or would this be out of your bailiwick?

Mr. LUDINGTON. It would be dealing with a different clientele. The same students are not involved, but the rationale is partially the same. The work-training program differs from that of vocational education work training. Therefore, I would assume that some of the arranged work experience would also be different.

Our goal, and Mr. Arnold can support this, was to use the work experience program so that the youngster would be employed in a public agency for the most part, or with a private employer, doing kinds of things that would support the kind of training he was getting in school.

PROGRAM AT STAPLES, MINN. Mr. ARNOLD. I might say, to illustrate that, we visited the area vocational school at Staples, Minn., a couple of weeks ago, and they have quite a sizable heavy equipment operator training program which involves a great deal of maintenance of that equipment. They have a very large machine tool training unit up there, a half dozen instructors, fine precision equipment that Mr. Flood was describing this morning

This is a rather rural area in Todd County, Minn. The students in there are employed after school hours to assist in maintaining the program. This ties in with their training as maintenance people and operators of the heavy equipment.

Also, they have constructed most of their own buildings in Staples, and the students who were in the building trade are used on the workstudy program to assist. So far, of almost 19,000 students accommodated last year in the vocational education work program, I would say most are employed in a variety of skilled jobs that have to do with the vocational program itself, though there are some public employment, particularly in office and clerical work.

Mr. LUDINGTON. That provides an element of realism you cannot always simulate in the classroom, laboratory, or shop situations.

Mr. MICHEL. Just one final question.

VOCATIONAL STUDENT LOAN ASSISTANCE

You indicate in the justifications on page 15 that you intend to submit a supplemental for fiscal year 1966 totaling $1 million for vocational student loan assistance. Since it is quite obvious we are well into the second semester, why not link this proposal with the 1967 budget rather than using a supplement?

Mr. KARSH. In 1967 we are extending it, of course. We do hope to get something off the ground in 1966. We would like to get the program started in this fiscal year.

Mr. MICHEL. Could you use the full $1 million in the balance of this fiscal year?

Mr. KARSH. We are planning to.
Mr. MICHEL. In that one area?

Mr. KARSH. We are planning to. Most of that is to go out to States for advances for reserve funds. Essentially we are just getting it off the ground.

Mr. MICHEL. Would it be fair to say this $1 million is all going back to the States?

Mr. LUDINGTON. No.

AMOUNT OF ADVANCES TO STATES

Mr. MICHEL. What percent would go back to the States ?

Mr. KARSH. The States would get $850,000 of the $1 million. That is to be the advance. We anticipate that there may be interest pay

ments of $100,000, and there would be $50,000 for instance if there were no straight programs available to students. Almost all would be going out in terms of State operations.

Mr. CARDWELL. Characteristically, student loans are arranged in the fourth quarter of 1 year for the student who will start to school in the fall following.

That makes this a very critical period in this program, the period from now to the end of this year.

Mr. MICHEL. Then what is the amount in 1967 ?
Mr. KARSH. $1.8 million.
Mr. MICHEL. So a total of $2.8 million ?
Mr. KARSH. Yes.

NUMBER OF STUDENTS BENEFITING

Mr. MICHEL. How many students would you expect to benefit from this total figure?

Mr. KARSH. We are expecting 15,000 to benefit in 1966 and 55,000 in 1967.

PHASEOUT OF WORK-STUDY PROGRAM Mr. DUNCAN. I just have a couple of questions.

Do I correctly gather from the very brief opportunity I have had to hear my colleagues testify that the work-study program is going to be phased out?

Mr. LUDINGTON. It is being reduced this fiscal year below the level of fiscal year 1966.

Mr. Duncan. Does this mean a phaseout? Are you going to eliminate this entirely?

Mr. HOWE. In 1968, you mean?
Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. LUDINGTON. This determination has not been made to my knowledge.

Mr. CARDWELL. There is an assumption in the budget that looking to the future, more of this kind of activity will be shifted to OEO. There is no firm goal set for the phasing out of one program.

Mr. DUNCAN. I just understood the answers to Mr. Michel's questions to candidly grant that you are going to be reaching a different type of youngster with the OEO program than you are in the vocational educational program. Is that not what was said a few minutes ago?

Mr. LUDINGTON. In general, there are differences. There are also similarities.

Mr. DUNCAN. They certainly are not going to the same youngster.

Mr. LUDINGTON. Not the same youngsters in the same point in time.

Mr. CARDWELL. But youngsters with the same general characteristics will often find their way into the program.

EXPERIENCE WITH WORK-STUDY PROGRAM

Mr. DUNCAN. What has your experience been with the work-study program? Has it been satisfactory? Have you been disappointed?

Mr. LUDINGTON. No. I think we have been encouraged by those States and local districts that were in a position to start this program. Last year was really the first full year for this operation.

Mr. DUNCAN. Have they used those funds simply to replace local funds that were already being spent on the program?

Mr. LUDINGTON. No. All our legislation requires maintenance of effort.

Mr. DUNCAN. I understand the legislation requires it. Has this been the practice, too?

Mr. LUDINGTON. The practice is that, and our auditing and fiscal requirements are designed to insure the expenditure of these funds in addition to those previously expended.

Mr. DUNCAN. Has this work-study program permitted youngsters to avail themselves of the vocational education program who, in its absence, would have been unable to attend?

Mr. LUDINGTON. That is one of its basic assumptions, sir.

Mr. Duncan. Do you anticipate that the diminution of this workstudy program will result in a decline in enrollment in vocational education?

Mr. LUDINGTON. It could do that in many communities.

Mr. DUNCAN. And your theory is those youngsters who can no longer be served by the vocational educational school, because of the absence of the work-study program they will find themselves going into the Neighborhood Youth Corps and getting work experience on the job that will take the place of the vocational education school?

Mr. LUDINGTON. That is one of the assumptions.

Mr. Duncan. Is this a better way to train these youngsters to earn their living with their hands than in a vocational educational school?

Mr. LUDINGTON. I do not know that there is a 100-percent agreement on that, whether it is better. It may be better in some respects, but not others.

Mr. Flood. "No" is the answer?
Mr. LUDINGTON. I was ready to say that.

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, this sounds to me as though it represents policy to encourage the one program as against the other, and it does not make sense to me if your rather emphatically repeating “No” is a correct answer to that question. If this is the better of the two programs, why should we be discouraging it and encouraging the Neighborhood Youth Corps ?

Mr. KARSH. The “No” answer to the question is not a unanimous answer.

Mr. Flood. Let me tell you about one of my Polish constituents.

We had a Polish fellow who used to go out where we went fishing. He was a hard laborer in the mines. Everyone used to kid him. He was no dope, but sort of funny.

He would sit around in the grocery store near the lake. He would have a couple of beers and say he was the smartest fellow in the world, he and his brother Methro. He had a brother Methro and he and his brother Methro could answer any question that anyone asked about anything.

He was a natural performer and speaker, so you would ask him a question and he would say, "That is à question for Methro."

There was no Methro, of course.
Mr. KARSH. That is your answer.
Mr. Flood. That is a question for Methro.
Mr. HOWE. We can use that in the future.

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Mr. Flood. I have looked at thousands of witnesses who I wished knew that story.

JOURNEYMAN'S CERTIFICATION

Mr. Duncan. Your people who come out of vocational educational schools still are required, before they become a journeyman, for instance, in one of the trades, to go through the apprenticeship program, aren't they?

Mr. ARNOLD. If they wanted to get a fully certified journeyman's certificate as a result of a registered program. Of course, other than the registered apprenticeship program, there is no formal recognition of the so-called journeyman in this country. He is generally measured by what skill and knowledge he has and how well he performs on the job.

But, in the registered apprenticeship program, of course, he gets a full journeyman's certification.

In some States—I think in your State and in California—there are formal arrangements between the vocational school, or the vocational department of a community college, and the joint apprenticeship committee at the local level.

Nr. Duncan. To give them some credit on their apprenticeship time?

Mr. ARNOLD. Yes. They usually evaluate that sometime after the graduate of the vocational program comes on the job and then he is slotted into maybe an 8,000-hour apprenticeship

SETTING REQUIREMENTS FOR APPRENTICES AND JOURNEYMEN

Mr. Flood. Who sets the requirements for an apprentice and a journeyman—who sets the qualifications? You enter upon an apprenticeship program and/or a journeyman program. Now, who determines how long you go, what is the curriculum, what you have to do and so forth? How is that determined ?

Mr. ARNOLD. In the formal program, in what we call the registered apprenticeship program, it is done jointly by what is called the joint apprenticeship committee. That is the management-labor committee at some local jurisdictional level with the assistance of the Bureau of Apprenticeship and Training.

Now, the Bureau, since its inception in 1937, has assisted those JAC's, as they call them, in establishing standards, setting the schedule of work processes, the rotation, the time element, wage scales, and so forth.

Mr. Flood. Suppose I am entering a career as a journeyman plumber. Are the conditions and requirements the same in California as they are in Pennsylvania for a journeyman plumber? Mr. Arnold. In the registered program they are substantially the

You might have some variations, depending on some advent of new materials and so forth, but, in the main, the basic standards are the same in order to qualify as a registered program.

Mr. FOGARTY. This is particularly true in the building trades?
Mr. ARNOLD. That is correct.

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