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Mr. DUNCAN. Have they used those funds simply to replace local funds that were already being spent on the program?

Mr. LUDINGTON. No. All our legislation requires maintenance of effort.

Mr. DUNCAN. I understand the legislation requires it. Has this been the practice, too?

Mr. LUDINGTON. The practice is that, and our auditing and fiscal requirements are designed to insure the expenditure of these funds in addition to those previously expended.

Mr. DUNCAN. Has this work-study program permitted youngsters to avail themselves of the vocational education program who, in its absence, would have been unable to attend?

Mr. LUDINGTON. That is one of its basic assumptions, sir.

Mr. DUNCAN. Do you anticipate that the diminution of this workstudy program will result in a decline in enrollment in vocational education?

Mr. LUDINGTON. It could do that in many communities.

Mr. DUNCAN. And your theory is those youngsters who can no longer be served by the vocational educational school, because of the absence of the work-study program they will find themselves going into the Neighborhood Youth Corps and getting work experience on the job that will take the place of the vocational education school? Mr. LUDINGTON. That is one of the assumptions.

Mr. DUNCAN. Is this a better way to train these youngsters to earn their living with their hands than in a vocational educational school? Mr. LUDINGTON. I do not know that there is a 100-percent agreement on that, whether it is better. It may be better in some respects, but not others.

Mr. FLOOD. "No" is the answer?

Mr. LUDINGTON. I was ready to say that.

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, this sounds to me as though it represents policy to encourage the one program as against the other, and it does not make sense to me if your rather emphatically repeating "No" is a correct answer to that question. If this is the better of the two programs, why should we be discouraging it and encouraging the Neighborhood Youth Corps?

Mr. KARSH. The "No" answer to the question is not a unanimous

answer.

Mr. FLOOD. Let me tell you about one of my Polish constituents. We had a Polish fellow who used to go out where we went fishing. He was a hard laborer in the mines. Everyone used to kid him. He was no dope, but sort of funny.

He would sit around in the grocery store near the lake. He would have a couple of beers and say he was the smartest fellow in the world, he and his brother Methro. He had a brother Methro and he and his brother Methro could answer any question that anyone asked about anything.

He was a natural performer and speaker, so you would ask him a question and he would say, "That is a question for Methro."

There was no Methro, of

course.

Mr. KARSH. That is your answer.

Mr. FLOOD. That is a question for Methro.
Mr. HowE. We can use that in the future.

Mr. FLOOD. I have looked at thousands of witnesses who I wished knew that story.

JOURNEYMAN'S CERTIFICATION

Mr. DUNCAN. Your people who come out of vocational educational schools still are required, before they become a journeyman, for instance, in one of the trades, to go through the apprenticeship program, aren't they?

Mr. ARNOLD. If they wanted to get a fully certified journeyman's certificate as a result of a registered program. Of course, other than the registered apprenticeship program, there is no formal recognition of the so-called journeyman in this country. He is generally measured by what skill and knowledge he has and how well he performs on the job.

But, in the registered apprenticeship program, of course, he gets a full journeyman's certification.

In some States-I think in your State and in California-there are formal arrangements between the vocational school, or the vocational department of a community college, and the joint apprenticeship committee at the local level.

Mr. DUNCAN. To give them some credit on their apprenticeship time?

Mr. ARNOLD. Yes. They usually evaluate that sometime after the graduate of the vocational program comes on the job and then he is slotted into maybe an 8,000-hour apprenticeship

SETTING REQUIREMENTS FOR APPRENTICES AND JOURNEYMEN

Mr. FLOOD. Who sets the requirements for an apprentice and a journeyman-who sets the qualifications? You enter upon an apprenticeship program and/or a journeyman program. Now, who determines how long you go, what is the curriculum, what you have to do and so forth? How is that determined?

Mr. ARNOLD. In the formal program, in what we call the registered apprenticeship program, it is done jointly by what is called the joint apprenticeship committee. That is the management-labor committee at some local jurisdictional level with the assistance of the Bureau of Apprenticeship and Training.

Now, the Bureau, since its inception in 1937, has assisted those JAC's, as they call them, in establishing standards, setting the schedule of work processes, the rotation, the time element, wage scales, and so forth.

Mr. FLOOD. Suppose I am entering a career as a journeyman plumber. Are the conditions and requirements the same in California as they are in Pennsylvania for a journeyman plumber?

Mr. ARNOLD. In the registered program they are substantially the same. You might have some variations, depending on some advent of new materials and so forth, but, in the main, the basic standards are the same in order to qualify as a registered program.

Mr. FOGARTY. This is particularly true in the building trades?
Mr. ARNOLD. That is correct.

TRAINING FUNCTIONS OF EMPLOYER

Mr. DUNCAN. In the neighborhood youth program what you are really doing is putting the training functions on the employer rather than on the vocational training school, aren't you?

Mr. LUDINGTON. In part.

Mr. DUNCAN. What do you mean, "in part"?

Mr. LUDINGTON. There are some classroom and guidance counseling discussions and formal education provisions.

Mr. DUNCAN. In the Neighborhood Youth Corps, the youngster will be getting his training right in a shop with the work experience in the type of work he would plan to be placed in, whereas he to would learn it in the other program in a school.

Mr. LUDINGTON. Or in terms of whatever employment opportunities are available.

Mr. ARNOLD. Mr. Duncan, may I point out that in the Neighborhood Youth Corps about two-thirds-perhaps a little less-of that enrollment were in-school youth? They might be vocational students or they might not, but their work training then might be associated with an employer while the youth is in school.

Mr. DUNCAN. Of course, that is what I was trying to get at as to whether they were a different group of youngsters or whether it would be the same group.

Mr. ARNOLD. The Neighborhood Youth Corps starts 1 year later. It starts at 15 and goes through 21 instead of through 20, as in the work study program.

SHIFT TO NATIONAL YOUTH CORPS

Mr. DUNCAN. I think what we are trying to decide is whether this is a replacement. If so, it it a better program than the one we have been funding? If it isn't a replacement, if it is an option and describing a different type or group of people, do we need both of them rather than one to the exclusion of the other, and I don't think we have gotten any testimony on that that has been very helpful yet.

Mr. CARDWELL. I think if you could characterize the Office of Education budget, and the Office of Economic Opportunity budget in these two areas, you would find that the budget policy that they attempt to enunciate is to move forward with the Youth Corps program at a greater rate.

But, to preserve and maintain the basic concept of the work study program that is directed more toward the traditional vocational education with emphasis given to both, but with greater emphasis given at this time to the Youth Corps program which seems to have been successful in its initial ventures. In a tight budget where there had to be some hard choices the choice was made to move faster in the direction of this new innovation than in the direction of the older program.

Mr. DUNCAN. That is an adequate explanation except it isn't accurate. You used the word "maintained" and you are not maintaining it. You are down $10 million.

Mr. CARDWELL. That is not reflected all against this program.

Mr. DUNCAN. There is a $15 million cut in the whole program, is that right?

Mr. CARDWELL. In this one area.

Mr. DUNCAN. That is all.

Mr. FOGARTY. Is there anything else you would like to say, Mr. Ludington?

Mr. LUDINGTON. We appreciate your interest.

Mr. FOGARTY. Thank you very much.

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1. To increase grants to States in the Appalachian region for construction of vocational schools to the full authorization of $16,000,000.

2. To initiate the program of residential vocational schools.

3. To provide for additional vocational student loans:
(a) Advances for insurance reserve funds..
(b) Interest payments on insured loans.

Subtotal, program increases.

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8,000,000 3,500,000

175,000

675,000

12,350,000

-8, 000, 000 -15, 000, 000 -50,000

-23, 050, 000

-10, 700,000

EXPLANATION OF CHANGES

1. The Appalachian Regional Development Act of 1965 authorized $16 million for construction of vocational schools in areas of the region where such education was not available. The $8 million requested represents the balance of the total funds authorized which are needed to carry out the intent of the act. The decrease of $8 million represents the unobligated balance which was brought forward in fiscal year 1966.

2. The decrease of $15 million for the work-study program is attributed to the phasing out of the program as the Neighborhood Youth Corps program gradually assumes responsibility.

3. The requested $3,500,000 will be used to begin a program of residential Vocational schools on a demonstration basis authorized by the Vocational Education Act of 1963.

4. In order to provide for additional vocational student loans to meet the expected increase in new borrowers in 1967 will require increases of $175,000 for the insurance reserve fund and $675,000 for interest payments on the loans. The $50,000 decrease reflects a transfer of this amount to the student loan insurance fund.

Expansion and improvement of vocational education, Office of Education

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An amount of $209,741,000 is requested for fiscal year 1967 for grants to States to extend and broaden vocational education as contemplated by the Vocational Education Act of 1963.

The maximum authorization of $49,991,000 is requested for fiscal year 1967 for grants to States under the George-Barden Act. This represents the same amount appropriated in fiscal year 1966. This authorization includes $15 million for area vocational programs, now a permanent authorization under the GeorgeBarden Act; $29,311,000 for allotment to States for vocational education in agriculture, the distributive occupations, home economics, and trades and industry; $5 million for practical nurse training; $375,000 for the fishery trades; $80,000

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