Senator TYDINGS. That was back in 1964 before the buildup for Vietnam, and that was under the then conditions. I would think that perhaps there would be more today.

Mr. HARSHA. Would the alleviation of that Government employee parking need materially affect the downtown problem?

Senator TYDINGS. Everything would help; everything would help. Mr. HARSHA. It would lead to helping alleviate the general parking

situation?

Senator TYDINGS. It would help-it could not but help; however, it would not do the job, you know.

Mr. HARSHA. Thank you. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DowDY. Mr. Hagan?

Mr. HAGAN. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DOWDY. Mr. Broyhill?

Mr. BROYHILL. Senator Tydings, I would like to associate myself with my colleagues here in commending you for a very concise statement and for your interest in this situation that concerns all of us. Before I ask a couple of questions, I would like to make a few statements so that my questions will not appear to be in opposition to what the gentleman is trying to do. On the contrary, as the gentleman knows, I did cosponsor this legislation with him a couple of years ago in an approach to the problem, so that we might coordinate our efforts and be helpful in working together. I am not in opposition to what you are for, but I am concerned about some aspects of the legislation you propose, and you may help me to clear those up in my mind.

First of all, the legislation I have introduced requires the Federal Government, as an employer, to provide parking for its employees. Senator TYDINGS. That is very important very important.

Mr. BROYHILL. This is what is happening in business and in industry everywhere.

Senator TYDINGS. Not only here, but throughout the United States.

Mr. BROYHILL. It is absolutely necessary.

Senator TYDINGS. Certainly, just to keep even with where we are now; not so far behind. That is absolutely the minimum.

Mr. BROYHILL. In any legislation trying to improve the situation here, and to alleviate the 12,000-space deficit that you have referred

to

Senator TYDINGS. And it probably is getting worse all of the time. Mr. BROYHILL. I feel that it is the responsibility of the Federal Government to do this.

Senator TYDINGS. All over the United States.

Mr. BROYHILL. That is why, whatever your legislation may do, I am fearful, Senator Tydings, that we are concentrating here more in the direction of the business community. I am not quarreling with that, so far as the business community is concerned, but we have the Federal employees in one group, we have the tourists in another group, and, certainly, the Federal employees are the responsibility of the Federal Government in the Nation's Capital.

Senator TYDINGS. Of course, the beauty of this proposal is that they are given the responsibility to provide parking. This would be in it, but also for the Government employees and for the tourists as well.

Mr. BROYHILL. You see my concern on this?

Senator TYDINGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROYHILL. I understand what the intent of the legislation is and the thrust of it.

Senator TYDINGS. It is in there.

Mr. BROYHILL. I understand that.

Senator TYDINGS. And you will recall

Mr. BROYHILL. But as to Federal employees, we must make sure that they are taken care of.

You mentioned fringe parking, but there is still a question of parking for Federal employees. We must provide for that, regardless of whether we have revenue bonds, or anything else to offset it. Senator TYDINGS. You will have to have it.

Mr. BROYHILL. It should be the minimum, do you not think? Senator TYDINGS. You need those parking facilities. You need the revenue bonds. You need the parking revenues. If you intend for the thing seriously to work, you need those.

Mr. BROYHILL. I do not believe that we should have the responsibility of providing parking for Federal employees. Do you not agree that is the responsibility of the Federal Government, as an employer? Senator TYDINGS. Let me say that you have two problems. You have a special situation now which you need to meet; then, you have the long-term problem of the responsibility of the Government in the future to provide parking facilities just as exist in modern office buildings the responsibility of the Government to provide facilities for the existing personnel is there. All of this, I think, is important. What I am endeavoring to do here is to have a program that in a sense would take care of the problem which is so great now, and it covers tourists and Government employees as well, and individuals in business, in the business sector of the economy as well.

Mr. BROYHILL. If we set up a program to require the Federal administration or the Commissioner here, so far as the District is concerned, to provide parking facilities for the employees, that is as it should be. I know that some employees have to come to work an hour early in order to find a parking space. We should require the Government to provide that space and alleviate that situation. It will make a big difference in this problem that we are talking about right now if we do. Such a program would make 11,000 or 12,000 spaces available in the downtown parking area alone.

Senator TYDINGS. If you could press the Government for that, it would be a tremendous improvement.

Mr. BROYHILL. That is what I am very fearful of.

Senator TYDINGS. Of course, the difference is that we all agree with what you are saying to pass legislation—but to do it, to do what you propose and to do it effectively, calls for substantial appropriations. Mr. BROYHILL. I know that.

Senator TYDINGS. And in the light of the President's economy, you have to find a way to achieve that without at least appropriating further money.

As you will recall, I offered a companion bill in the Senate, because I agree with you.

Mr. BROYHILL. I say, Senator Tydings, that I am for all of this, so far as your interest in helping the business community in downtown Washington is concerned. You know my interest in helping there. I also acknowledge that we cannot, as the result of thisSenator TYDINGS. How about the stores and the tourists?

You do not think that they should be helped?

Mr. BROYHILL. Yes; what did you say?

Senator TYDINGS. The tourists-the tourists have to live some place; they have to put their cars someplace. I worked hard and long on the District Committee, and I am on the Parking Subcommittee there, but we should provide aid to the tourists. You are not going to take care of the tourists, in my judgment, unless we pass a comprehensive parking_act.

Mr. BROYHILL. I think it is our responsibility to take care of the tourists. We must do that. And we must also take care of the Federal employees, and the others, by fringe parking.

I do not want all of the effort to be directed just to facilities for the downtown visitors, so that the tourists and the Federal employees. will not be taken care of.

Senator TYDINGS. As I indicated, our program here is designed to take care of the tourists, fringe parking areas, to provide spaces. wherever needed, you know, within the Washington, D.C. area. You, yourself, would be welcome to offer companion legislation, and to the extent that the Government would go into the parking business and to appropriate money to build garages to park Government employees, well and fine. To that extent, we would not have to do it. But we are not trying to dictate that.

Mr. BROYHILL. I hope not. However, my fear was aroused possibly because most of the testimony in the record thus far applies to the business community alone. Frankly, Senator, I am amazed that the business community of downtown Washington has thrown up its hands and admitted that free enterprise cannot solve their problem. They say that they need the right of eminent domain, but they want more than that.

Senator TYDINGS. You expect them to build the roads?

Mr. BROYHILL. They want tax exemptions on the bonds, also. Senator TYDINGS. Do you consider roads a subsidy?

Do you consider rapid transit a subsidy?

Mr. BROYHILL. I certainly do not-not roads, no.

Senator TYDINGS. Do you consider roads a subsidy?

Mr. BROYHILL. No. That goes back to the tax on gasoline.

Senator TYDINGS. All public benefits. Schools are a subsidy, if you. want to get to that and the like.

Mr. BROYHILL. I will not argue with you as to that.

I am expressing amazement that the business community in the District of Columbia has been unable to provide its own parking facilities. It does so in the suburbs.

Senator TYDINGS. There is not a major city in the United States that does not have a municipal parking authority. Are you amazed that the business in all other cities have municipal parking authorities? Mr. BROYHILL. I am still amazed that free enterprise has not been able to solve the problem for itself, and that they cannot solve it. We do not have any such problem in northern Virginia, because whenever we build a structure

Senator TYDINGS. We have had municipal parking authorities for years, Mr. Broyhill.

Mr. BROYHILL. We have zoning requirements that require parking to be provided in buildings now being built.

Senator TYDINGS. We have had municipal parking authorities for years. You know the difference between suburbs and the cities. Mr. BROYHILL. I hope I do.

Senator TYDINGS. Sure, you do.

Mr. BROYHILL. We do require by zoning that parking be provided. Insofar as parking meter fees are concerned, you did, at one time, have that income set aside.

Senator TYDINGS. Yes, that is right.

Mr. BROYHILL. How is that now a subsidy?

Senator TYDINGS. First of all, parking meter revenues come from parkers.

Mr. BROYHILL. It comes from on-the-street parking.

Senator TYDINGS. It comes from the parker who puts his nickel or his quarter in the meter. Now, we provide in this authority that we are going to construct certain other facilities in which you can park your car. It will not necessarily have to be limited to the number of spaces with parking meters, and we are going to use the revenues from the parkers' parking fees in addition to the revenue from the parkers who park in the buildings to pay back the bonds and stand behind the bonds as collateral-the bonds that are sold.

Mr. BROYHILL. I understand that. I understand the legislation on that point. My question is: Does this not amount to going into the highway funds?

Senator TYDINGS. Only since the rider was passed. The rider was designed to kill the parking authority.

Mr. BROYHILL. I sponsored that.

Senator TYDINGS. I know that you sponsored it.

Mr. BROYHILL. Well

Senator TYDINGS. You knew that when you sponsored it.

Mr. BROYHILL. What do you mean, I knew?

Senator TYDINGS. You knew what it would do, because you sponsored it. You are a very, very intelligent Congressman.

Mr. BROYHILL. Thank you.

Senator TYDINGS. You knew very well that when you removed those parking meters what you were going to do with the parking authority.

Mr. BROYHILL. Senator, the parking meter revenues are presently going into a special highway fund. Under the legislation you propose, however, they will no longer go into that fund but will go to pay off these bonds. This means that we would then have to appropriate money for that special highway fund.

Senator TYDINGS. It has worked, as we have pointed out, in practically every other major city. It will be self-supporting. The actual costs will never have to be taxed for. They are always available there for security. Certainly, parking meter funds should be as security for parking facilities. You would not think of taking the tolls from a highway, received from cars on the highways, and using those tollsor say that you cannot use those tolls for the repair of that highway or to pay for the construction bonds. We are going to use them to build an airport, instead.

Mr. BROYHILL. That is the thing that this proposed legislation would authorize, as to the use of these funds.

Senator TYDINGS. They are the physical facts of life.

If you do not provide the parking meter funds, you would kill this chance for the financing of the revenue bonds.

Mr. BROYHILL. I would be more inclined to assure this financing than you are. I may be inclined to guarantee the bonds, rather than specifying that only certain revenues presently used by the highway department will be used to pay them. I think it can be done separately. I agree with you on that. I think that this could be a profitable proposition, but I am fearful that it will prove to be a profitable proposition downtown but not take care of all of the parking problems.

Senator TYDINGS. That is the whole design and concept of it. When we introduced this, we did not have any idea that you were going to introduce your bill, but the whole design of this is an integral part of the transportation system, so far as roads and transit systems are concerned, and we provide in here that the first step toward this parking authority is a complete survey and tie-in with the future parking needs with the transit system and with the highway system, and we even spell the way they can go about it in fringe parking. We spell out that they allowed to go under the Mall, under public parks, that they shall provide parking facilities for tourists, that they shall meet the needs, the whole District needs. It is a part of the whole transportation complex. The whole theory here is that parking is today a vital part of transportation and this whole thing is designed not just to take care of business, because the actual number of spaces--the business community probably will need less space than the tourists will, or even the fringe parking will. It is a part of it. Business is a part of Washington.

Mr. BROYHILL. That is my principal concern. I should like to be assured of that, because, frankly

Senator TYDINGS. I can assure you that

Mr. BROYHILL. I do not think we should just help the business interests of the District of Columbia, and not the other people. By doing this, we would provide additional competition for our business people in the community by granting someone a subsidy, or a guarantee, or whatever you want to call it, and by so doing we would be derelict in our responsibilities.

Just one more question:

You used the words, "land speculators.”

You say you are familiar with people going out here and buying land to build on, paving it over for parking, and just waiting for the land to increase in value. Who are these people in the parking business?

Senator TYDINGS. Let us put it this way: I have every reason to believe that some of the principal land speculators in the District also control some of the parking operations.

Mr. BROYHILL. The principal land speculators?

Senator TYDINGS. Yes, sir, that is right.

There were a whole series of articles in the Washington Post last year or the year before. I would ask permission at the close of my remarks if we might put that whole series in the record. It went into exactly how they operate, who they were, and the way they work, and the sites. I have it right here, in case you are interested.

Mr. HARSHA. If you will yield?