Mr. STEIGER. Have you had experience in other jurisdictions with reserve units that are more active or more sophisticated than the unit here?

Mr. MURPHY. I have had experience with reserve type units in two other police departments, Mr. Steiger, but, frankly, this unit here is more active than in the other two jurisdictions and I think we have a good base to build on here. It is just that I think it is an unfair hardship to expect the men to purchase their own uniforms and to have no protection, and I am encouraged that with these two additional attractions we will get more men and they will give us more of their time. Mr. STEIGER. It has been expressed to me in private, since I was author of the bill, that we would be arming a vigilante group. My reaction to this is that if indeed we have a vigilante type organization it would seem to me that the best place to have it would be in the control of the Police Department.

Have you any reaction to this charge?

Mr. MURPHY. I think it is both Chief Layton's view and mine that any arming of the officers would be on a selective basis and only under those circumstances that we feel would warrant it.

As you point out reserve officers would be under the supervision, direction and control of the police officers through their precinct commands and I think we can effectively control the situation.

Chief LAYTON. I might add to that that we envision with this kind of specific statutory authority, also, setting up specific rules and regulations for strict control or dismissing any officer from the reserve force who might not measure up so that the control is built into it.

Mr. STEIGER. I have met only two of these active reservists. They purchase their own uniforms and give their time voluntarily without any protection so far as injury is concerned. There appears to be a high degree of interest in those now serving. It seems we are remiss in not mining this potential reservoir of dedication. If Mr. Murphy and Chief Layton think that this bill will provide the incentive to stabilize and increase the reserve I think we would be equally remiss in not passing this bill.

I thank the Chairman.

Mr. Dowdy. I want to first say that I was critical of the failures of April. Now I want to compliment the June 24 action which demonstrates that firmness and willingness to act and willingness to make arrests and willingness to shoot, if necessary, will quickly bring mobs and looters under control.

I want to compliment you, Mr. Murphy, and the rest of you for the action taken on June 24 for having placed no restrictions on the police in enforcing the law on that occasion.

I think that should be a demonstration of proper police action not only here but in cities all over the United States.

We know what happened in Detroit and Philadelphia, in prior years, ordering police not to make arrests and do nothing to looters. You have demonstrated the effect of strict enforcement of the law.

I should add my comment about Fauntroy. I was not surprised at his action or any of the other actions he has taken.

We in the South, of course, can understand the action of one screwball is not the action and feeling of all the people. Other people in other parts of the country do not understand that. When we have some

lunatic down South making some outrageous statement it is attributed to all the Southern people but we realize you have screwballs everywhere. We have them and New York has them.

As to the statement Mr. Steiger made that someone had told him his reserve bill would create an armed vigilante group, I think that someone who would so construe the bill is one of those screwballs we have reference to. I know that that would not be the case with the reserves you have here. I think that all people who have any knowledge of it, in a country which has the most general arming of the population, the country of Switzerland, you would not find a family in Switzerland which does not have arms in their homes and they have less law violation perhaps than any other nation in the world. So it is another one of the lunatic statements that you would be arming vigilantes, by creating a police reserve.

Mr. WHITENER. Mr. Steiger was quoting and not making the state

ment.

Mr. DOWDY. I said the statement was made to him.

Mr. STEIGER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DOWDY. Did I not make it clear?

Mr. STEIGER. I understood, Mr. Dowdy.

Mr. Dowdy. If I did not make it clear I will correct that. I was referring to a statement made to Mr. Steiger.

There is only one other thought which I have in connection with the reserve. A few days ago, and let me preface this I have had people here and in other places who said they had been given a permit to carry a gun to protect their business. I always said "Don't you dare carry a gun whether you have a permit or not unless you are willing to use it, if the occasion arises.”

If there is limitation placed upon these reserves in the use of a gun they should not have one with them because if they cannot use it they are likely to get themselves killed with their own guns just like the officer who got killed with his own gun the other day. I don't know whether there were restrictions on the police to use their guns, but certainly as to a man who has a gun, in the course of his duties or otherwise, it is dangerous for him to have it with him if he will not or cannot use it because otherwise somebody would take it away from him and shoot him.

When regulations are written up about this that should be borne in mind.

Mr. MURPHY. I agree it would be dangerous to have a man carry a gun and then say he may not use it under the circumstances where he is authorized to use it, to protect himself from another citizen or to make an arrest under appropriate circumstances.

I agree with you. I think all we were intending to imply, Mr. Dowdy, was that when a reserve officer was appointed that he would not automatically be armed immediately. He would go through training and he would be authorized to carry arms on a selective basis.

I think Chief Layton has thought the problem through and perhaps he would like to speak to this.

Mr. DowDY. They should be instructed completely and trained in the use of the gun.

Chief LAYTON. Yes, sir. That expresses my feeling, Mr. Dowdy, also, that the reserve officers are working a regular job separate and apart from the police work which they do. Some of them put in more

hours than others. Some work only a few hours on occasion, so that first of all I would not consider arming them automatically when they are first brought into the service. There would need to be a period of training, and then perhaps on a selective basis.

I also agree that once they are armed they should have and they would have the same authority that any other police officer would have that the law permits to use the weapon once he has been considered by the officials that he has reached the point he should be armed.

Mr. DowDY. The first gun I had was given me when I was nine years old. My father spent more time telling me what not to do than he did in teaching me how to shoot straight.

I think it is well that young folks, and older ones, too, are told what not to do with a gun.

That is all. Thank you.

Mr. WHITENER. Mr. Abernethy?

Mr. ABERNETHY. I have no questions. I would just like to first commend the Policemen's Association for the statement which they issued on yesterday or the day before. Also I would like to commend the support which you, Mr. Murphy, and the other gentlemen have given the Association regarding this so-called United Black Front. Perhaps you are not in a position to comment as an official. Perhaps you might comment as a private citizen on the position taken by this fellow Fauntroy on that.

We feel you are left in the status of a divided government, you as the head of the Police Department supporting the police, and the City Council supporting the Black Front.

In think it is very unfortunate that people like Fauntroy are left on the City Council, and I think the community was just as disappointed last night as it was this morning when the Chairman of the Council come out in support of Fauntroy, probably with a majority of the Council, since the others have been so silent.

I don't know how you gentlemen feel about it but if I had appointed that Council I would have them in my office this morning. I don't know whether the President has called them in or not but if he has not he certainly ought to.

It is not for me to say what the President ought to do, but the people of this city are entitled to good police protection. You are obviously trying to give it to them. Certainly you cannot give it to them unless you have the support of the City Council which invidently you do not have.

I suppose about all you can do is sit there and gulp. I wish you might be able to say more. Maybe you can. I don't know.

Mr. GUDE. If the gentleman would yield, I was not aware of any change in position as far as the Chairman of the Council was concerned.

I know Commissioner Washington made his position clear about this.

Mr. ABERNETHY. I heard this morning, I think it was this morning or last night

Mr. Dowdy. It was in yesterday's paper.

Mr. ABERNETHY. -that the Chairman of the Council, Mr. Hechinger, came out in support of Mr. Fauntroy. I don't know of anybody else supporting him except the United Front.

Mr. GUDE. I felt that all the city administration except the Vice Chairman of the Council was opposed to the position of the Black United Front.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Did the gentleman hear the radio comment?

Mr. GUDE. I am not aware of this other situation.

Mr. ABERNETHY. I think my hearing is good and that is what I heard. If Hechinger did make that statement I am sure the gentleman would disapprove of it.

Mr. GUDE. Absolutely.

Mr. ABERNETHY. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. WHITENER. Mr. Moyer, in looking at Title 5 of the United States Code it appears that in the event of total disability or temporary total disability a reservist would be limited to 66% of his income base in the event of injury. Is that right?

Mr. MOYER. I believe I saw that here.

Mr. WHITENER. I believe it would help us, if it would not be too much trouble, for you or somebody down in your department to quickly give us a brief summary of the application of the Federal Compensation Act to a reservist who may be injured or who may lose his life in the service of the Police Department.

I am sure it would have to be an injury or death by accident which arises out of and in the course of his employment. I imagine that is the test.

Mr. MOYER. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. WHITENER. If we can have that for the record I think it would help. No doubt when the bill goes to the Floor there will be questions asked about the compensation aspects with regard to injured reservists. Another thing we might want for the record would be whether in the opinion of the legal branch of the District Government a reserve police officer would be in the same position as a regular police officer in so far as the performance of duty was concerned, that is the law of arrest and such matters as that.

Mr. MOYER. All right, sir.

Mr. WHITENER. I don't think we, and I perhaps speak only for myself, would want Chief Layton to call these reservists into what we might call a temporary active duty status and then not have that officer vested with the same right to make an arrest which a regular officer would make. If the bill does not give him that authority, or if other existing law does not, we might want you to suggest some changes in the bill which would accomplish that.

I am assuming the other members of the Subcommittee would agree with that.

We had an illustration a while ago. If you had arrived here on Capitol Hill and you called out your regular forces, say, from the Northwest section of the city, and then Chief Layton sent up there fifty reservists to do regular police work while the regular men were down here in this more violent atmosphere, it would be sort of foolish, it seems to me, for that reservist to be up there and not be able to arrest a robber or a drunken driver or other law violator.

Mr. MOYER. In the bill now on page 2, starting at line 10, there is a statement to the effect that these reserve officers shall be considered regular police officers for all purposes, and so on.

Mr. WHITENER. You can include that view in the memorandum as to what this would do and what his position would be.

Mr. MOYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITENER. Chief, how many reservists do you have now?
Chief LAYTON. We now have on the roll, Mr. Chairman, 456.

Mr. WHITENER. Administratively do you have a staff or an individual assigned to coordinating the reserve force with the regulars? Chief LAYTON. Yes. We have one official now in our Special Operations Division. He is assigned there to coordinate the overall work of the reserve corps.

Then in each precinct there is a Metropolitan Police officer who is assigned as a coordinator for the reserve corps in that precinct, and each precinct has reserve corps officials up to the rank of lieutenant.

Mr. WHITENER. If you go into a 700-man reserve program will that not require additional administrative manpower to be utilized?

Chief LAYTON. I do not see a great increase, Mr. Chairman. There might be some increase in the number of reserve officials, sergeants and lieutenants. There might be some small increase in the Metropolitan Police manpower for the administrative end, but I do not see a large increase.

Mr. WHITENER. What about in the area of educational and training programs?

Chief LAYTON. We perhaps will have to increase that somewhat. We have, of course, been giving training to the members who are now on the rolls, classroom training as well as on the job training.

One of the duties of the coordinator in the precinct is to coordinate the training for the reserve officers, but we probably would want to increase that and it might be necessary to involve some of our training division staff in this.

Mr. WHITENER. Does this cost estimate which you make take into account that type of additional expense which might arise?

Chief LAYTON. No, sir, it does not. We do not view that as a large increase. I think we can absorb this in our present activities, and the dollar cost you have is largely for uniforms and equipment.

Mr. WHITENER. Do you have any impression as to the feeling of the average regular police officer toward the reserve program? Would there be any lessening of morale with your regular forces if you brought in these reserve forces in a more active way or would there be any lessening of efficiency and zeal on the part of the regular forces?

Chief LAYTON. I do not believe so, Mr. Chairman. I am sure that from the standpoint of the officials who frequently are hardpressed to put enough men in uniform on the streets that they welcome the opportunity to have these additional reserve officers available to them.

This program which we have now on a voluntary basis has been in effect since 1950. We have used on many occasions, special occasions, as I previously indicated, reserve corps officers, and they have been used to back up and to take the place of regular police officers which we have had to take out to put on the front lines, so to speak.

In times past we have used not only reserve corps officers but voluntary members of the Fire Department as well as members of the National Guard, so the whole idea of increasing the available manpower