Mr. THOMAS. My language was inaccurate. You have the authority under existing laws to bind the taxpayers for $5 million you borrow. Mr. FRANTZ. That is correct. Mr. JONAS. Mr. Frantz you are not required to get budget approval for that? Mr. FRANTZ. An estimate for actual appropriations, part of the $5 million, would be sent up by the Bureau of the Budget; yes, sir. Mr. JONAS. That is after the contract is made? Mr. FRANTZ. That is correct. Mr. ROONEY. This is similar to the setup for the Public Roads Administration. There is about nothing you can do but sign the check. Mr. JONAS. You do not have to get Budget approval before you enter into the contract. You have that authority right now without anybody outside the Agency authorizing it other than the authorization in the law? Mr. FRANTZ. That is correct. Mr. JONAS. Do you contemplate entering into any contracts of this magnitude during the next fiscal year, Mr. Administrator? Mr. WEAVER. I would expect that we would. Mr. JONAS. How many people do you have in the Public Housing Administration today? Mrs. MCGUIRE. 1,405 total. Mr. JONAS. You do not think out of that 1,405 you can get this man without hiring a new person? Mr. WEAVER. Assuming this man was good enough to do this job, he would be doing a vital job in Public Housing, and he would have to be replaced. We would just be juggling. We still would have to have the money if we are to get an additional person. It is a question of where the money would go. We are asking for only $20,000 for the administration of a $5 million program, so I think it is very modest, if I may so so. Mr. JONAS. You would not be willing to tell us that that would be the limit, the maximum you will ask? Mr. WEAVER. This is the maximum we are asking in this budget for this year. Mr. JONAS. I know, but we have to think a little bit about the future. You know how Topsy grows. He has been growing pretty fast in Government. Mr. WEAVER. I do not think this will be a program that will require a whole lot of staffing. I doubt if this would grow in a cumulative fashion. I would not want to commit myself to eternity, nevertheless. Mr. JONAS. That is all. AGENCIES IN HHFA Mr. JENSEN. How many subagencies do you have under the Housing and Home Finance Agency, the parent organization? Mr. WEAVER. There are two types of agencies. There are those directly under the administrative of HHFA, and that would include the Community Facilities Administration and the Urban Renewal Administration. In addition, of course Mr. JENSEN. It is all under the Housing and Home Finance Agency? are the head? Mr. JENSEN. List all of the subagencies under your jurisdiction, please. Mr. WEAVER. Community Facilities Administration, Urban Renewal Administration. In addition there is the FHA and the Public Housing Administration. There is also FNMA of which I am Chairman of the Board. Mr. JENSEN. Spell out FNMA. Mr. THOMAS. Federal National Mortgage Association. Mr. JENSEN. I know what is means but many people reading the transcript would not know what it meant. What else do you have? Mr. WEAVER. That is it. AGENCY EMPLOYMENT Mr. JENSEN. How many people are employed in all of those ageneies? Fr. FRANTZ. About 11,400 in round numbers. Mr. JENSEN. How many additional people did you ask for in the regular appropriation bill for 1962 and how many additional employees are you asking for in this supplemental request? Mr. FRANTZ. We estimate, Mr. Jensen, that the bill, as enacted, would permit total increases of 1,466 in the total agency. Mr. THOMAS. That is the regular 1962 bill? Mr. FRANTZ. That is right. There are 936 additional positions in the supplemental. Mr. JENSEN. So if your request for this supplemental is approved by this committee for new employees, then how many employees will you have in all of these agencies? Mr. FRANTZ. 13,789. ས་ Mr. JENSEN. But right now, under the provisions of the regular appropriation bill, you have almost 13,000, or you will have almost that number when you fill all the positions? Mr. FRANTZ. Almost that; that is right. Mr. JENSEN. Why is it not possible from those 13,000 people to get all of these employees for which you are asking in this supplemental bill rather than asking us for these 900-plus additional employees who will cost about $6,000 apiece? That is a pretty penny, gentlemen. Mr. WEAVER. I think, in general, without going into the figures, the answer lies in this: The new legislation which was passed in this session of the Congress has increased our responsibilities, has given us several new programs, has expanded-as we have attempted to set out in detail in this book-the sphere of practically everything we are doing. Each one of these changes and each one of these expansions requires more action, more work with communities, and so on. Just to give you one illustration: in urban planning, the new law changed the formula from a 50-percent grant to 662% percent; urban renewal grants were raised to 75 percent for smaller communities. We have the new area redevelopment responsibilities. All of these impinge upon our programs and require a great deal more action and services in the field which we have to provide. As we said in our earlier budget request, most of these people will not be in the central office in Washington but in the regional offices where they will be able to carry the programs out for the public. We have a greatly expanded program, for example, for public facilities. This deals primarily with smaller communities, communities which require a great deal more assistance and services than do the larger communities. When you get into the smaller communities if you not have staff the program will just bog down. Then we will be in the position of not being able to carry out the program which the Congress has said we should administer. Mr. ROONEY. Would the gentleman from Iowa yield? Mr. JENSEN. I will be through in just a moment, Mr. Rooney. TOTAL PROGRAM AUTHORIZATIONS Mr. JENSEN. What is the total amount of grant authority which you have at the present time? Mr. FRANTZ. For all the agencies? Mr. JENSEN. Yes. Mr. FRANTZ. I would have to provide a statement for you to show that, Mr. Jensen. I could not add it up in my head because there are many programs involved. (The information requested was later supplied as follows:) Summary of new program authorizations contained in the Housing Act of 1961 1 Key: BA-Treasury borrowing authorization. CA-Contract authority. AA-Authorization for appropriations; new obligational authority when actually appropriated. 2 Excludes additional amounts made available by subsections 601 (b) and (c) of the act. 601(b) transfers to this authorization approximately $200 million from the Program 10 antirecession authorization of the Emergency Housing Act of 1958; and 601(c) transfers to this authorization approximately $140 million a year for 4 years from management and liquidating functions, representing the net decrease in the aggregate principal balances of that mortgage portfolio. 3 Assumes use of $79-million balance of contract authority, which otherwise would be unavailable, to place under contract approximately 100,000 units of low-rent housing. Act authorizes the Administrator to contract to make up to two-thirds grants for mass transportation demonstration projects. The $25-million authorization for this purpose is part of the total urban-renewal contract authorization. 1 Mr. JENSEN. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. THOMAS. Further questions, gentlemen? Mr. ROONEY. What is the magnitude in dollars of the increased programs as a result of the recent legislation? Mr. WEAVER. This we will have to supply. Mr. ROONEY. Can you give us an approximation at this point? Mr. ROONEY. I want it to show the justification for the increase in employment. Mr. FRANTZ. The urban renewal program was increased by $2 billion to a total of $4 billion. The public facility loan program was increased from $150 to $600 million. The authorizations for mass transportation grants Mr. ROONEY. Would you add all this up at this point in the record in a statement showing the amount of increased responsibilities dollarwise which you have assumed in order to justify the requested increase in employment? Mr. FRANTZ. Yes, sir. (The information requested may be found on p. 717.) EMPLOYMENT AND EXPENSES, 1959-62 Mr. THOMAS. When we get through with all this let us have a summary table showing the appropriation and the jobs for 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, and this supplemental. I have read the figures for the Office of the Administrator. Let us have it for all the agencies involved, administrative and nonadministrative expense. The big money is in two items, of course, but for jobs it is in one item, nonadministrative expense for FHA. We will go into detail later. Give us that table for 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, and the supplemental, dollarwise and number of jobs. Mr. FRANTZ. Insert that at the end of this discussion of the line items? Mr. THOMAS. Yes. (The information requested follows:) |