Mr. SCHMIDT. Total alterations and remodeling in that case would amount to $19,000; air conditioning, $6,000.

Mr. JONAS. Isn't it air conditioned already?

Mr. SCHMIDT. The building is not completely air conditioned; the court space is and we would have to air-condition the altered office space.

Mr. JONAS. Do you mean in the judge's suite?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes sir. To make it a part of the total court facility which is air conditioned.

Mr. JONAS. Who else is in this building?
Mr. KNOTT. The Corps of Engineers.
Mr. JONAS. Are they air conditioned?

Mr. KNOTT. Window and package units.

Mr. JONAS. What would you put in this suite, window units?

Mr. SCHMIDT. This would be part of a central system that furnishes air conditioning to the court space.

Mr. JONAS. This is not adjacent to the court space, is it?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Insofar as possible we will attempt to generate this space as a part of the total court facility.

Mr. JONAS. You mean it will cost $29,000 to recondition this wouldbe suite of offices in an existing building in Atlanta to accommodate this one judge?

Mr. SCHMIDT. That is our estimate, sir.

Mr. THOMAS. Mr. Jonas, who is he going to move out, a district clerk, probation officer or who?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe it is the Corps of Engineers space that will be vacated in order to generate such space for the judge's suite. Mr. JONAS. I have found out all I need to know, if it is going to cost that much just to remodel one existing suite of offices. Mr. THOMAS. What is the construction cost?

Mr. JONAS. $6,000 for air conditioning.

Mr. THOMAS. He will put in three window units. It may be a 1ton unit.

Mr. JONAS. Alteration and remodeling, $19,000. What will you do with that money?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Partition changes, toilet facilities, rearranging the entire space. In most cases it requires a rearrangement so as to permit the judge to remain within these quarters, which are associated with the courtroom he uses.

Mr. JONAS. Is this across the corridor from the courtroom or adjacent to it?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I am not familiar with the immediate requirements in this particular building.

Mr. THOMAS. Can you get out the worksheets and break down the cost on this project?

Mr. JONAS. The situation in Hartford is more alarming than this

one.

Mr. THOMAS. Maybe Mr. Hunter can break it down.

Mr. HUNTER. Construction, $19,000.

Mr. JONAS. What does that consist of?

Mr. HUNTER. That consists of changing of partitions, addition of toilets, bookcases, painting, et cetera.

Mr. JONAS. You can build a brand new house for that. You can build a large house with a furnace, et cetera.

Mr. HUNTER. This is a sizable area, 1,630 square feet.

Mr. JONAS. How many rooms are there?

Mr. HUNTER. That will probably consist of five rooms, somewhere

in that neighborhood.

Mr. Bow. Would you yield?

Mr. JONAS. Yes.

Mr. Bow. This 1,630 square feet is something you have taken out of the air, is it not? It is not this particular suite. I see you have used 1,630 right straight down the line.

Mr. HUNTER. This 1,630 is based on the established court require

ments.

Br. Bow. For one judge?

Mr. HUNTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bow. This is not a particular suite you are talking about; 1,630 square feet is what you figure you are going to put a judge in? Mr. ĤUNTER. That is right, sir.

Mr. Bow. You are not talking about any particular suite or any particular building when you talk about 1,630 square feet?

Mr. HUNTER. We investigated this building to see if we can get this particular area into it, sir.

Mr. Bow. That is all.

Mr. JONAS. Do you have any other items?

Mr. HUNTER. $6,000 for air conditioning.

Mr. JONAS. Is there any further breakdown?

Mr. HUNTER. I cannot break this down further until such time as we make drawings and can determine exactly what these costs will be. Mr. JONAS. These figures are not firm. They are just estimates drawn out of the air?

Mr. HUNTER. No, sir. They are estimates using our best judgment with the drawings and materials available to us at the time.

Mr. THOMAS. This is not a competitive contract estimate?

Mr. HUNTER. No, sir. There are our own office estimates based on our experience and based on the drawings and material we have.

Mr. THOMAS. Your experience has been the best I know of. We have cut it in here 15 percent. After we cut it 15 percent on your other estimate you would lower them another 10 percent and turn around and take that money and go out and save the Government a whole lot of money by buying another building. We are not fussing at you. We are commending you. I can account for 25 percent in there already.

Mr. JONAS. I can figure out some. I think we will have to deal with Mr. Olney on that.

These people are the best builders I know of but I think they have some pretty elaborate plans presented to them. I think they can be cut down.

Mr. THOMAS. You might discuss with Mr. Olney what goes into these suites.

Mr. JONAS. I have difficulty understanding why refurnishing a suite of five offices would take $19,000. It reminds me of what the Army tried to do to us in military construction. They came in with a $770,000 item to build a grocery store in Fort Leonard Wood. It

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worked out to be $17.50 a square foot. I called up a supermarket operator at home and asked him what he would have to pay for construction. He said about $8 or $9 a square foot plus about $6 for equipment.

Mr. THOMAS. $9 is a high figure.

Let's take a look at the other projects.
Name some of them, Mr. Schmidt.

KANSAS CITY PROJECT

Mr. SCHMIDT. In Kansas City, a cost of $25,000 for a total of 5,032 square feet.

Mr. THOMAS. Why is this so much against 1,600 in the other? Mr. SCHMIDT. This includes the courtroom, jury room, judge's suite, witness room, and court reporters' office. These facilities are existing, being used for other purposes and would be reactivated for this court

use.

Mr. THOMAS. The old courtroom is there?

Mr. SCHMIDT. The courtroom and the jury room, judge's suite, witness room, et cetera.

Mr. THOMAS. What will you do with the courtroom?

Mr. SCHMIDT. These facilities have been used since they were built. It is a matter of refurbishing and redecorating.

Mr. THOMAS. You have the same amount of money for the two projects. You have twice as much square footage here.

Mr. SCHMIDT. The square footage indicated here is for the total facility. It is not a matter of developing this total facility in the building. It is already there. It is just being used for other purposes.

Mr. THOMAS. That is true in your Atlanta building. Your square footage is there. You will move out the Corps of Engineers and maybe a couple of other agencies. Your plumbing bill is pretty expensive. I understand that.

Mr. SCHMIDT. The space in Atlanta is just general office space and will be developed to meet the requirements of the courts, whereas in Kansas City it is already developed for that purpose. It is merely a matter of moving the tenants out, refurbishing and redecorating. Mr. THOMAS. The courtroom is already in existence. It is a question of a paint job and knocking out one or two partitions. You do not have any plumbing to do, do you?

Mr. SCHMIDT. That should all be in this space. It is probably a matter of providing some of the building equipment that is normally included in the court space and was not included originally.

HARTFORD PROJECT

Mr. BOLAND. May I inquire about Hartford? Are you building a new building at Hartford, Conn. Is it a courthouse, and Federal office building?

Mr. SCHMIDT. It is a courthouse and office building.

Mr. BOLAND. Why do you need this particular space here?

Mr. SCHMIDT. This, again, is merely an interim solution to the problem until the new building is completed.

Mr. BOLAND. You are going to spend $36,000. When the new building is completed, will you have the new judge in the new building or will he stay in this building?

Mr. SCHMIDT. He will move to the new building.

Mr. BOLAND. What will you do with this space after you complete spending $36,000 on it?

Mr. SCHMIDT. We propose to use this space for general office use. Mr. BOLAND. You will have to convert it to general office use again? Mr. SCHMIDT. The reconversion should not require a great deal of additional work. We will do nothing further in this old building until such a time as we can move into the new building.

Mr. BOLAND. In the old building is there space available now for a judge to sit and listen to cases? The judge ought to be happy he is appointed. I do not think he would be too interested presently in whether or not he has a tremendous suite and the finest appointments. I think he would be glad to wait a year. I am sure he was looking for the job.

Mr. SCHMIDT. This requirement in Hartford, in addition to the judge's suite, requires an additional witness room and a court reporter's office which will be tied in with the existing court facilities.

Mr. BOLAND. What do you have in the present facilities? Is there a facility now for a judge's suite? I do not mean refurnishing. I mean giving him a room to sit in, with a bench and with sufficient. room for witnesses. A court reporter can be given a spot anywhere in the building. I don't know why you have to spend $36,000 in this one building when the Hartford Federal Building will be completed in a year and all the new judge has to do is wait. He has waited years for the job he will be appointed to.

I am sure he does not mind waiting another year for better space. Mr. SCHMIDT. True, it is just general office space that is available and whether or not that could be suitable to the operation of a court, of course, is something that we cannot very well determine. Mr. BOLAND. Do you know whether or not it is?

Have you looked at it and determined whether or not it is suitable? I do not know why they cannot use temporary facilities pending the construction of a new building. I can see going to a place like Atlanta where no building is being constructed but where you have a new building constructed, to be completed in a year, I do not know why you have to spend $36,000 in this one instance and, as Mr. Thomas pointed out, you are doing it in Denver, too.

Mr. SCHMIDT. This becomes, as I see it, a matter to which perhaps the administrative officer of the courts may wish to speak as to the acceptability of this general office space in a location within the building where we can provide it.

Mr. BOLAND. Has anyone from the GSA who is here now been in the present building in Hartford and looked it over or are you doing this from plans and a program you draw up in Washington without looking at the facility?

Mr. SCHMIDT. This program was developed from the actual plans here, however, with some review by our field staff.

Mr. BOLAND. What kind of review by your field representative? What did he report to you as being available in Hartford, for instance?

Mr. SCHMIDT. He reported the extent to which these accommodations could be provided in this building by vacating some of the present office operations that are now located there. This work would not be entirely lost, even when the courts finally vacate the building and move to the new building. Much of this is improvements that we would normally make in the building when we remodel it.

Mr. BOLAND. That does not follow at all because you are improving this particular area for this particular duty: the judge's suite, a witness room, and a court reporter's office. You are improving it only for this purpose. Then when the new building is built a year from now, you will take the new judge out. He is going to move into the new building. They will start to reconvert the chamber which you made new in the old building back to other office space. This is what you are doing, are you not?

Mr. SCHMIDT. It undoubtedly would require the removal of some of the interior partitioning which would be in the way of a general office operation in the space.

Mr. BOLAND. I think the GSA could look over this space that is available. I understand you are working in cooperation with the Administrative Officer of the U.S. Courts and you follow their judgment and advice in these matters. I understand that fully. It would seem to me the GSA should look this space over and determine for themselves the adequacy of that available space, which will be used temporarily by a judge who will be moved out of there within a year, into a brand new Federal building and where this new Federal building has the space requirement and has the facility for the new judge in Hartford, Conn., I do not know why we have to provide this type of a facility for him in the present building. I would think the GSA should look at it and determine whether or not you can put a judge in there where he will be at least comfortable for a year. He will be a lot more comfortable after the year is over.

Mr. THOMAS. Gentlemen, may I suggest to the committee now, without any formality, that you pick out some of these alteration sites that may come to mind.

Bear in mind that $25,000 and $30,000 an item is the smallest part of this bill. It is about one-fifth of it. We will go into the other items outside of alteration costs in a few minutes. Bear in mind, it is the small part that is involved. It is the moving, furnishing, rent, et cetera, that costs.

Mr. ROONEY. You have a request for $64,000 in Cleveland just for alterations.

Mr. JENSEN. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. THOMAS. Mr. Jensen.