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One notes for example, that Mr. Altbach, whose name I mentioned, is already the recipient of an NEH grant for the study of university education and I think this is not only perfectly all right but eminently desirable.

I should say in summary of my own views that there is every obligation on the Chairman to consider all applicants to this institution equally competent, equally deserving, depending on the merit of their projects, of course, to receive the kind of aid that we can grant.

Senator Javits. Let us take a practical example that is perhaps better known popularily than those you have named. Suppose Norman Mailer applied for a grant to the NEH. What would be your criteria for evaluating him?

Mr. BERMAN. I would think Jr. Mailer has his own private funds, of course, to rely on. That would be one criterion. But a second would be, of course, and a more important one, his talents.

Mr. Mailer is one of the five or six of our best political journalists today. He is better at this than he is at writing fiction. On the grounds of talent alone and the question of finances notwithstanding, I should think we would have no other choice but to support him.

Senator Javits. So you are ready to assure us then that both intellectually and administratively those with whom you may disagree intellectnally will get a fair break and that you feel in conscience and as an educator fully able to undertake that degree of objectivity in asking for our confirmation ?

Mr. BERMAX. I certainly hope so. Senator.
Senator Javits. Not you hope so, but do you?
Vir. BERMAX, Yes.

Senator Javits. You are a man of conscience so your answer is very important to me.

Mr. BERMAX. It is an emphatic "Yes, sir."
The CurMAX. Senator Pell.
Senator PELL. Thank you, Senator.

With no reflection on Doctor Berman, I would be remiss if, as the author of the original legislation establishing the National Foundation on the Arts and Humanities along with Senator Javits, I didn't express at this particular time deep disappointment in what I think is the disgrace of not having filled this post for about a year and a half.

One of the more important opinion-forming, idea-developing positions in the United States and for specifically 1 year and 5 months minus 2 days, has been empty. I did not know that Doctor Keeney was a Democrat when he was appointed, I didn't know he was a Democrat until he was reappointed.

There have been names considered for this job, some good, some not so good, but I think the sense of priority that has postponed filling it for such a long period of time reflects poorly on a nation that wants to develop its leadership in the field of ideas as well as in the field of material things.

The CHAIRMAX. Would the Senator yield at that point?
Senator PELL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAX. Perhaps during this period when there wasn't a permanent Chairman the individual acting in the office might have well filled this void. Who was the Acting Chairman?

Senator Pell. The Acting Chairman is a very fine man. He is Wallace B. Edgerton, who many of us in the committee knew before he went to the Endowment. Mr. Edgerton did a very fine job and held this organization together when it could easily have crumbled apart with out sensitive and skilled and strong leadership. I would hope that he will be staying on.

The CHAIRMAN. And the President will be forgiven; in fact, I, for one, will thank him, as we do know the work of Wallace Edgerton here in the Senate. I, of course, knew him personally as my administrative assistant. The job was well done, waiting for you. Dr. Berman.

Senator PELL. On this question of your willingness to aceept ideas from the left or the right or from any quarter, I am wondering what your views are, Dr. Berman, with regard to trying to spread the humanities around to the grassroots. When we first started out with this program, we had some ideas that perhaps grants in the humanities could be awarded to people who did not have the benefit of a Ph. D. or even an A.B. or a high school diploma, but were skilled or interested or believers in the humanities and were developing some area of expert knowledge.

I am wondering if you yourself see the possibility of moving in the direction not only of giving awards to the Ph. D.'s, the people with the union cards, but to the people who are humanists though they don't have the credentials?

Mr. BERMLAX. Yes, Senator. As a matter of fact, I have recently drafted the introduction to the annual report of YEH and tried hard to establish that very point. The point being this: We have two constituencies--one of them is the profession of teaching: the other is simply, I think, everyone else who remains in this country after we have taken care of the teachers and the students, and to them we ove obligations.

I think they should take the following forms. One is a very strong. extended university concept-that is, something like university estension right now, but I think more powerful, more organized, and with more dedication behind it. This would use the university campus as a focal point for the community as a whole. It would offer classes at times when ordinary people getting off work can attend these classes.

A second thing that I think would be valuable is the spread of our assistance away from research centers and institutes toward secondary education.

Good examples of this are projects already underway at VEH, the National Humanities faculty and National Humanities series, whie! send groups of expert people from leading university centers out into the secondary schools and smaller communities.

Yet a third I think would be the specific cultivation of adult minority education. The minority young have received a good deal of education, but we have skipped a generation in dealing with the entire problem, and there are a lot of middle-aged working minority people who have not much opportunity for this kind of thing. I will be deeply conscious of the needs to take care of our other constituencies, all those who are simply working adults, people in rural area, especially those I would say who have a connection with the world of intellect but who have not been entirely within it-people attached to local historical societies, museums, county libraries, even secondary teachers.


These are the people to whom I would like to dedicate a great deal of our resources.

Senator PELL. You will have the means to, because the little grants to little people can do a great deal to stimulate the ideals that you wish to see stimulated. One of the programs in the endowment of the arts that I liked very much, though there has not been quite as much of it now, are the individual grants as opposed to the grants to institutions. I would hope that the Endowment for the Humanites, which has always had individual grants as the essence of its work, would move even further in this direction, to individual grants nearer the grassroots in smaller amounts, spread all around the Nation.

I would like to see your constituency go deeper, to not only get the State universities and the educational establishments galvanized but to also try and reach more and more of the people. I wonder if you can enlarge a little bit on whether you might get into the business of giving thousand-dollar grants on the individual level.

Mr. BERMAX. Yes, Senator. As a matter of fact, really quite as a coincidence, I had in mind this sort of thing for this reason. Simply in terms of accounting procedures, a good deal of money has to be wasted in giving institutional grants. A lot of the money goes to setting up secretarial assistance, setting up an office and travel funds.

I would like to see that money used more directly for the purpose of education. The way simply in terms of good sound accounting pro(edure to make the most of your money is to give it in smaller grants more directly at least, to so to speak, the intellectual consumer. So I would be very deeply sympathetic and have already thought along the lines of giving small grants directly so that people can educate themselves over the summer, in the evening, perhaps by taking time off from work, but in whatever way we can do this.

Senator Javits. Would you yield?
Senator PELL. Yes.

Senator Javits. One thing I think you should give us assurance of on the record, as we have legislative oversight over your department, vould you feel that it is worth your time and energy to keep us rather losely apprised of all that you do in rather a close relationship beween yourself and the subcommittee?

Mr. BERMAN. Certainly, Senator, I will take pains to transmit to sou the news of every major decision that we make.

Senator PELL. And if they are in our own States, in advance. Your appointment is for 1 years, is that correct? Mr. BERMAX. That is right, sir. Senator PELL. At about what do you see the level of authorization f your program at the expiration of your term of office; what would ou like to see it?

Mr. BERMAX. I am tempted to bring in the example of the Duke of rbino. It was said of him, in praise, that half the income of the state -as spent on libraries. I don't think we will reach that point, but I could hope we would approach the $100 million figure anyway.

Senator PELL. Thank you very much, and I look forward to voting or your confirmation.

Mr. BERMAX. Thank you, sir.
The CHAIRMAX. Mr. Dominick.
Senator DOMINICK. No questions.

Senator SCHWEIKER. No questions.
The CHAIRMAX. Senator Taft.

Senator Taft. Thank you, very much, Mr. Chairman. I welcome you as a graduate of Yale and Harvard and also as a very eminent member of the faculty of Kenyon College in Ohio. I have no particular ques. tions. I have reviewed your qualifications and feel certain that you have the background to do this job, and I do feel that an additional degree of contact with the job you are doing and this committee could be quite helpful. I have been involved in some of these grant programs. I think they can be perhaps more effective if there are channels so that they do not become a regular or expected thing. I would hope that perhaps in your view of these grants, they would become the exception thing, the additional work that someone does.

I, myself, have had some connection with a fund of this type which is earmarked by the original deed of trust for the University of Cincinnati and the faculty and others at the University of Cincinnati who deal with the humanities. At the same time the administration of it is by the same trust directed away from the regular faculty channels and even from the President.

They may consult with us, and there is a faculty committee which must make recommendations but the trustees ultimately make these decisions and I think the independence of this group has been a major consideration in being able to attract certain faculty members and to keep those faculty members when we get them there and keep them working in areas where they can be most productive.

Mr. BERMAX. I will certainly take that to heart, Senator, and perhaps we can go closer into the details as to how you would like to see similar arrangements made.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Stafford.
Senator STAFFORD. No question, Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAx. Dr. Berman, it seems to me that the benefits of exposure to humanities studies comes most casually or haphazardly to the people of this country. I was impressed with your statement regarding broader dissemination to people where they live or work. Did you mention the community colleges as possibly the most receptive area for exposing people to benefits of humanistic study?

Mr. BERMAN. I did not mention that, Senator, but I think it certainly ought to be said in the record, and I think a good mechanism for this would be to expand our program of sending experts down from the universities to junior colleges and community colleges at stated times—perhaps for one lecture, perhaps for several days to hold seminars.

Now at the University of California, for example, this takes place over weekends at community focal points where people can come in at a time when they are free, for reeducation in middle age. I think the community college would be a natural place for this.

The CHAIRMAN. It irould seem that way to me. The community college is coming on as a most helpful vehicle for all kinds of study and exchange. This seems to fit your objective very well.

Mr. BERMAN. Yes, sir,

The CHAIRMAX. Thank you very much. The committee will now proceed to other business.

(Whereupon, the committee proceeded to other business.)


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NOVEMBER 30, 1971

Printed for the use of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare


71-159 O




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