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struck out, leaving the three factors specified to be the determining factors in the allotment.

Senator DONNELL. Yes, ma'am.

There is another point I have, if I may pursue that just a little further, if you do not mind?

Miss LENROOT. Not at all.

Senator DONNELL. Suppose we would leave out the term "such factors as," so that he would be obligated to take into consideration only those three items.

Miss LENROOT. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. As I underestand it, there is nothing in this section which says anything as to the relative weight to be given to each one of those three criteria.

Therefore, there would still, would there not, be left a discretion on his part to determine the relative weight and in addition would there not be the point that the language, "the special problems of maternal and child health" are of such a broad import that what one person would consider a special problem another would not, and the net result would be that there would still remain such a broad delegation of discretion as might involve a delegation of legislative power? Miss LENROOT. Well, I would prefer not to consider it from the point of view of the delegation of legislative power, because, as I said, I am not a lawyer.

I think broad discretion is given.

We have similar discretion with the allotment of a very much smaller fund under the Social Security Act.

We have found that it would be exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to decide in advance some mathematical weighting of these three factors.

For example, the special problems of maternal and child health might completely outweigh the factor of the number to be served. There may be a serious epidemic of some sort in a relatively sparsely populated area. This would be a very serious problem that would need to be tackled, and if we were prevented from allotting, as we now do, for instance, for an epidemic of infantile paralysis, enough money to a State to deal with a particular situation, because already the maximum under factor 1 or factor 3 had been reached. I think that the hands of the administrtive agency would be seriously tied.

Therefore, I would feel that with the provisions that are included in the bill and certain amendments that Dr. Eliot will propose for consultation with an advisory council and with State officials, I would hope that this amount of flexibility would be maintained in the bill. Senator DONNELL. Now, Miss Lenroot, one further question and I will try to not pursue this further.

The provision for a Federal advisory committee

Miss LENROOT. Yes.

Senator DONNELL (continuing). Take the one at section 105, on page 10, where the Chief of the Children's Bureau "shall formulate general policies" et cetera, after consultation with a conference of State health officials or officers, and an advisory committee, and so forth.

Miss LENROOT. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. Now, I am wondering if I have overlooked in this act, any similar provision with respect to the Secretary of Labor being

required to consult with an advisory committee as to the allotment of these funds.

Is there any provision like that in the bill?

Miss LENROOT. No. I think there is nothing with reference particularly to consultation with the Secretary of Labor on allotments. I think the advisory council would be set up for the purpose of developing general policies as to standards and requirements and matters of that sort affecting the State plan.

Senator DONNELL. I thought that was all it was, too. I did not see anything that referred to the Secretary of Labor being required to consult with anyone, which, in turn, raises this further inquiry as to whether or not the Secretary of Labor, who is not required to be a specialist along this line, and I say this without any slightest criticism of our present Secretary, or any future one, but that is not what he is selected for ordinarily, I take it.

He is required here, under this bill, without being obligated to confer with any advisory committee, to take into consideration in allotting money all over the United States, which might be $495,000,000 or $990,000,000, he is required to take into consideration the special problems of maternal and child health, whereas the Secretary of Labor may himself know virtually nothing of that subject.

I appreciate, of course, that as a matter of common sense, he is going to confer with the Children's Bureau into these things, and with those people whom he thinks, within his own organization are competent to advise him, but I am wondering, is it your thought that it would be advisable, without making this bill too cumbersome, to require the creation of an advisory council to advise him on these matters of allotment, or whether you think there is a danger in vesting so much power in him?

Miss LENROOT. Section 105 refers to formulation of general policies for the administration of this title.

It does refer to the Chief of the Children's Bureau and not to the Secretary of Labor.

Dr. Eliot will suggest an amendment defining in more precise terms how an advisory council might be set up which would be an amendment to section 105.

Senator DONNELL. May I interrupt you?

Miss LENROOT. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. Is it contemplated that that advisory council would have, among its duties, the right to advise the Secretary of Labor?

Miss LENROOT. I was going to say, I do not think the amendment Dr. Eliot will propose takes that into consideration, except that I think it was assumed that the general policies that would be developed would include policies with reference to allotment.

Senator DONNELL. Yes.

Miss LENROOT. I should think consideration might well be given to giving this same advisory council, which would advise the Chief of the Children's Bureau concerning policies for which she is responsible, some duties with reference to allotments.

I think we need to give further consideration to that, however. Senator DONNELL. I am sorry to have taken so much of your time on these details, but I thought it would be of interest to get your views.. Miss LENROOT. I would like to add one more thing.

Senator DONNELL. Yes.

Miss LENROOT. That is, on page 3, the section concerning the factors of allotment.

You will note that item 3 speaks of the financial need for the State for assistance in carrying out the State plan.

Senator DONNELL. Yes, ma'am.

Miss LENROOT. This B fund, as we call it, because it is under paragraph (b).

Senator DONNELL. Yes.

Miss LENROOT (continuing). Does not require matching, but the third item, the financial need of the State for assistance in carrying out the State plan, assumes that in alloting the money consideration would be given to the extent to which States were able to pay out of their own resources for some part of the program, and that actually a State's financial contribution might be considerably in excess of the $5,000,000, which they were oblighted to match.

Senator DONNELL. Thank you, Miss Lenroot.

Senator PEPPER. Just one or two questions, Miss Lenroot.

It is your experience, is it, that the funds that are presently available for maternal and child-welfare programs in the country are grossly inadequate to meet the need?

Miss LENROOT. It is, Senator Pepper.

Senator PEPPER. And you feel that the failure to provide adequate funds for the various services that are contemplated in this bill very detrimentally affect the public interest?

Miss LENROOT. I do.

Senator PEPPER. In terms of the lives and health and usefulness of the mothers and children?

Miss LENROOT. That is correct.

Senator PEPPER. And you found that the EMIC program that was in progress during the war rendered a great public benefit, did you, by experience?

Miss LENROOT. I believe it did.

Senator PEPPER. Although it was limited to certain grades of servicemen, nevertheless there was no means test applied in the case of an individual mother or a child?

Miss LENROOT. No.

Senator PEPPER. And for the reasons you have given you feel it unwise to provide a means test in these programs?

Miss LENROOT. Yes, I do.

Senator PEPPER. Recognizing, I am sure, and seeing the extreme difficulty of drawing a line that will define a fair means test? Miss LENROOT. Yes.

Senator PEPPER. And that if you do try to draw one, because of the difficulty in defining it, the net effect is that mothers and children who should get medical and other care provided in this bill, do not get it? Miss LENROOT. That is correct.

Senator PEPPER. And it is better, if we must err, to err on the side of saving lives and health and usefulness of mothers and children rather than saving dollars?

Miss LENROOT. It seems to me so.

Senator PEPPER. Now, Miss Lenroot, yesterday a question was raised as to whether this program will cost too much.

Do you consider it is a question as to whether we spend mothers and children or whether we spend dollars?

Miss LENROOT. I do, Senátor Pepper.

I think that nothing can be more important to our Nation and ultimately to its economic stability and its capacity and ability to take its place in the order of world affairs than the physical and mental health of its population.

I regard physical and mental health and education as two essentials, and I do not believe that the amount that would be required at a maximum to support these services, after they were fully developed, would be too much of a drain on our resources. I think that the benefits in human happiness and usefulness, even measured by an economic yardstick would be exceedingly worthwhile.

Senator PEPPER. Is it your belief, out of your knowledge and experience in this field, that if we had had an adequate child-health and welfare program in this country, say, for the last quarter of a century, that a great many men who were found by Selective Service unqualified to serve their country in the war would have been eligible for service?

Miss LENROOT. Unquestionably a very great number of them.

Senator PEPPER. And do you feel if we had had such a program in effect for the last quarter of a century that it would not have been necessary for the Government to spend a lot of money and use a lot of personnel and so on in correcting many defects in the men it did accept in the armed forces?

Miss LENROOT. That is right. Furthermore, it would not have been necessary to take as many fathers of young children and disrupt as many homes as we had to under Selective Service if a larger proportion of our young single men had been in good physical condition. Senator PEPPER. This program would, for example, allow for the inspection of the health of all school children?

Miss LENROOT. That is right.

Senator PEPPER. If a school child needed dental care the dental care would be provided?

Miss LENROOT. That is correct.

Senator PEPPER. If it needed eye care, the correction of eye strains and so on, that would become possible for the child?

If the child had a tendency toward some physical weakness, whatever could be done to eliminate that would be done?

If a child has some abnormality that required an operation in order to correct it, instead of the defect beoing continued through life whatever could be done to correct that defect would be done?

Miss LENROOT. Yes.

Senator PEPPER. And in that way the country thus would gain greatly in the increased productivity of a healthier citizenry than it would if such corrections were not made?

Miss LENROOT. Yes; surely so.

Senator PEPPER. You do not regard this as an expenditure that is extravagant, but an investment in not only lives and in health, but in the greater economic productivity of the coming generation of this country?

Miss LENROOT. That is correct, Senator.

Senator PEPPER. Just one other question, Miss Lenroot. You in no sense of the word are opposing the President's reorganization plan?

Miss LENROOT. I am not.

Senator PEPPER. Or trying to obstruct it in any way?

Miss LENROOT. No.

Senator PEPPER. You feel, however, that if it is deemed wise by the President and Congress that the Children's Bureau should be located in the Federal Security Agency instead of the Department of Labor where it is now, that it is still not only possible but proper that the Children's Bureau should be retained as an entity?

Miss LENROOT. That is correct.

Senator PEPPER. And that it should be given the principal responsibility for the planning and administration of the program within that agency that would have to do with children and especially with mothers in the period of childbirth?

Miss LENROOT. That is my opinion, Senator Pepper.

I would like to say, however, that I think there are great possibilities for the fiscal and administrative drawing together of the various aspects of these programs under section 10 of the reorganization plan without invalidating the responsibility for continuation of the program leadership and standards-responsibility for the content of the program— which I think should be retained in an organization dealing with all aspects of child welfare.

Senator PEPPER. Dr. Eliot.

You are Dr. Martha Eliot, Assistant Chief of the Children's Bureau, Department of Labor?

Dr. ELIOT. Yes, Senator Pepper.

STATEMENT OF DR. ELIOT, ASSISTANT CHIEF OF THE CHILDREN'S BUREAU, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

Senator PEPPER. Dr. Eliot, how long have you been with the Children's Bureau?

Dr. ELIOT. I have been with the Children's Bureau since 1924. Senator PEPPER. Since 1924; and would you give us just a sketch of your background?

Dr. ELIOT. Well, I am a graduate of the Johns Hopkins Medical School. After that I had some 42 years' experience in hospitals. The first year of experience was in general medicine in the Peter Brent Brigham Hospital in Boston.

Following that I went to St. Louis, where I was assistant resident in the St. Louis Children's Hospital.

Following that I was 1 year in the Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston. Then I went to the New Haven Hospital, where I was resident in the pediatric service for nearly 211⁄2 years.

Following that experience I became a member of the staff of the Children's Bureau, still having my headquarters in New Haven, Conn., where I carried on research work in the field of preventive pediatrics for the Children's Bureau and at the same time retained my position as a member of the faculty of the pediatric department of Yale School of Medicine.

In 1935 I came to Washington to take up my duties as Assistant Chief of the Children's Bureau.

Senator PEPPER. Thank you very much. Will you proceed with your statement, please?

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