duty of the people on the Hill to see that this title I money follows these children.

You say title I money will follow the children. How can it, when we only have a handful of workers?

Mr. QUIE. It does not follow the children.

Mrs. CHASE. In one of these books I have, it says that. But it does not follow these children.

Mr. WARD. I would like to respond. I am talking from the standpoint of development, fighting for the resources that will allow us to have the people, the capability, to produce the programs so that we can come to you with confidence and say, "This program has been tested and if it is installed in your district it is going to help the children in this kind of way."

That is what we are fighting for. I am concerned when I go to Denver, and after $50,000 was granted to five States to come up with a proliferation plan for follow-through, and we are told to forget the planning for the proliferations-"because we have no validated projects."

There were hundreds and hundreds of people in communities working with these young children, volunteering as you were volunteering. I am sure better experiences were being provided because they saw to it that teachers cared and teachers got the things they ought to have in order to help the children.

Mrs. CHASE. The President picked a council of people to represent us at the National Council Conference. There were people sitting there who did not know anything about disadvantaged children. So how can they help us if they know nothing about us? They come from affluent homes, millionaires. They were not concerned about poor children, black, white, blue, or gray.

Mr. QUIE. What Dr. Ward is talking about, I would say, and the other men here, in the situation in Prince Georges County, they could go in and validate a project. When they come in with a scheme for busing kids to bring about a better racial balance, then you would have some way of showing this child is receiving an inferior education and could receive a far superior education if he were moved. Then you could say that child is entitled to at least an equal education for what he was receiving before. Then you can have a leg to stand on to talk to the judges, because they are involved here, to.

Mrs. CHASE. We desegregated our schools and we can say today for the short period of time our children have been in another setting I can see a decided improvement. Many parents see an improvement. There are many things we have to do as far as busing and as far as our teachers and other educators. I am an exteacher. I had a stroke, and this is what makes me have an impediment in speech, but I am out here trying to do my bit.

We did not have any problems with desegregation. You were all sitting here and thinking we were going to have these bad problems. We didn't have any problems.

Mr. QUIE. I want to thank you folks for your participation here today, and I want to say I learned a lot.

Mr. RAMSAY. If we invited you to be our guest and see what we are trying to do with title III funds-we know you have a very busy schedule, but I was thinking what we presented about title III here

Mr. QUIE. I would. I wish the chairman was here because it is a

subject I want to talk to him about. Since he is going to read the record, I will talk to him that way.

I don't think this committee can fully understand what you are doing if we just sit here and listen to you. To me, it is like reading about the Rocky Mountains and never looking at them. The first time you see them, you get an impression you can't get by reading.

I think it's the same with your projects. We tend to think in the light of what we see in our home areas and what we knew about some period back in history.

I, for one, would surely like to do that.

Mr. RAMSAY. We could send you an invitation to come at your convenience.

Mr. QUIE. I would like to see the committee get out to Prince Georges County, too.

Thank you very much.

The committee will reconvene at 9:30 a.m. on February 20th. [Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m. the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m., Tuesday, February 20, 1973.]

[Further information supplied by Mr. Edward Strack follows:]

Hon. CARL PERKINS,

THE UNIVERSITY OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK,
THE STATE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT,

Albany, N.Y., March 15, 1973.

Chairman, Committee on Education and Labor, U.S. House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.

DEAR CONGRESSMAN PERKINS: On February 28 I had the pleasure of appearing before your Committee to offer testimony in support of Title III of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act. During the testimony, you requested information regarding the number of Title III programs currently being funded. Through the cooperation of Mr. Gerald Kluempke, Executive Secretary of the President's National Advisory Council on Supplementary Centers and Services, ESEA Title III and the State Coordinators, the enclosed list has been compiled. Information is included for all states except Hawaii.

You will note on the attached chart that there are in excess of 2,050 projects involving approximately 8 million children, employing 335.000 teachers and over 10,000 counselors currently involved nationwide in ESEA Title III projects. Because Title III projects are funded on a three-year cycle, renewable annually, approximately % or 1,400 of these projects will be requesting continued funding at the end of FY '73.

I trust that I have interpreted your question correctly and have provided you with the information necessary to assist you in your deliberations. I appreciate the opportunity of meeting with you and your colleagues and look forward to your continued support.

Very truly yours,

EDWARD C. STRACK. Coordinator of Innovative Education Planning.

ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION

AMENDMENTS OF 1973

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 1973

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

GENERAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION OF THE
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,
Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met at 9:30 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Carl D. Perkins (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Perkins, Meeds, Lehman, Forsythe, Dellenback, and Towell.

Staff members present: John F. Jennings, majority counsel; Christopher Cross, minority legislative associate; Eydie Gaskins, special assistant; and Toni Painter, secretary.

Chairman PERKINS. The General Subcommittee on Education is today continuing hearings on H.R. 69, which reauthorizes the major Federal laws affecting elementary and secondary education, and H.R. 16, which authorizes a new program of Federal general aid.

We are hearing testimony today on P.L. 81-874 and P.L. 81-815 the impact aid programs. We are very pleased to have testifying before us four of my colleagues. We will begin the testimony with Congressman Thomas Downing.

I first want to welcome our colleague from over in the Tidewater section of Virginia, Tom Downing. He is one of the most outstanding supporters of the Economic Opportunity Act and educational programs that we have in the Congress.

When we are in trouble, we always go to Tommy Downing around here. You go ahead, Tommy.

STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS N. DOWNING, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF VIRGINIA

Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I would like to say that I join with this audience in their appreciation of your fine work as chairman of this committee.

I know that it is a violation of the rules for the audience to applaud, but it must have made you feel right good.

Mr. Chairman, I have come here today to offer testimony on behalf of H.R. 69 which extends and amends the Elementary and Secondary Act of 1965. I wish to direct my remarks toward that portion of the act relating to impacted school districts, several of which are in the first district of Virginia which I represent.