Mr. HILLMAN. For education and political action. Mr. CHURCH. But you are familiar with the fact these organizers are out getting people enlisted in your cause? Mr. HILLMAN. You mean registration? Mr. CHURCH. Yes. Mr. HILLMAN. Yes. Is there anything wrong with that? Mr. CHURCH. These organizers Mr. HILLMAN. Is there anything wrong in asking people to regis ter! Mr. CHURCH. And there is available this two and a half million dollars locally, if you have two and a half million down here, so that makes a total of $5,000,000, if it is limited to the membership of the C. I. O.? Mr. HILLMAN. Just a minute. Mr. CHURCH. I want to help you complete this record. Mr. HILLMAN. You are not helping, but let us get at that. Mr. CHURCH. Now there are other members Mr. HILLMAN. Wait a minute. Mr. CHURCH. There are members of other unions that might contribute a dollar? Mr. HILLMAN. Yes. Mr. CHURCH. And they have organizers go out to get membership? Mr. HILLMAN. Congressman, why indulge in all those hypothetical things? Mr. CHURCH. That two million and a half back there with the local P. A. C. does not reach you for this publicity we are asking you for here, does it? Mr. HILLMAN. Congressman Mr. CHURCH. Does it? Mr. HILLMAN. If you will be good enough to cooperate a little so as to get to the facts, I will be very happy. If this committee wants to get a check every 4 weeks, you will find out from us how many dollars are coming in, and you will know that 50 cents of each dollar is left locally, and then we will be very glad to appear here, if you have any questions. But this idea of assuming there is two and a half million dollars, and I presume, too, drawing interest, and then discussing how to handle it, is just beyond me. What we are interested in is to give you-and we are happy to appear before the committee so as to show that all of this talk about millions is silly. We have $17,000, or less than $17,000 out of these dollars so far. Mr. CHURCH. What I am concerned with is what you are going to have about 4 or 5 days before the election. Mr. HILLMAN. Well, I will be delighted to let you know, when we have it. Mr. CHURCH. And when you have it, there is an equal amount back in the locals with its use being directed by you. It can be used in hiring and paying organizers that also may be on the pay roll of the local. The organizers are on the pay roll of the local, are they not, at least part of the time? Mr. HILLMAN. The local, or the international, depending, again, on how the organization is organized. Mr. CHURCH. Do all locals account, so that their membership know the condition of their funds? Do you find they do? Mr. CHURCH. The fact is, it is not a voluntary thing; it is pressure. Mr. HILLMAN. Pardon me. Mr. CHURCH. I want you to tell me what it is. Mr. HILLMAN. You see, of course we are in a campaign and I am practical enough to know that after November 7 lots of these things will just fade out in the air, but right now there seems to be an organized campaign with some publications and I do not hesitate to say that Scripps-Howard is heading the parade-of trying to malign the activities of C. I. O. Now I read the front page of the WorldTelegram about two local unions having been expelled, or having held meetings, for repudiating the C. I. O. And not only was it on the front page, but there was an editorial entitled "Mr. Hillman, How About It?" Of course, I cannot answer before I find out the facts. I found out the facts about it. And we find, first of all, that that letter was never sent to me. That letter was supposed to be a letter to Sidney Hillman. Our people have discovered that the only place it was sent to was the New York papers and the local papers. Individual members of the Utah Political Action Committee have not approved the committee's endorsements. The membership of the local committee, in their excitement, asked them to resign from the committee. That is all there is-two individuals, whom I am told are Republicans-resigned from that committee. That is all right with us, quite all right, Congressman. Mr. BROWN. You are bi-partisan; do not forget. Mr. CHURCH. Do not forget that "Doc" J. Williams, president of that local 25 of Packinghouse, is a Republican. Mr. HILLMAN. Now here is the situation: Mind you, during the time that Paris was taken, the World-Telegram featured on its front page as big news a complaint about something in Utah. Now this is carrying the thing to a ridiculous extent. I am not complaining about it. The more they do it, the more they destroy any influence they ever had. But the fact is Mr. CHURCH. Do you mean that they should not resist paying this assessment like the above or the dollar? Mr. HILLMAN. Pardon me; there was no question of a dollar involved. Two men on a committee are opposed to an endorsement. The committee asked them to resign and they did. That is the information given to me from the people in the field. That was a story for front page news. I think it is rather complimentary, if two men disagree with us, that it makes front page news. If it means we have agreement with all the rest of them, we are pretty happy. Now as to Mr. Williams. I have had no complaint from Mr. Williams. I was in Chicago several times. I do not know whether they have put him out because of religion, or because of anything else Mr. CHURCH. No; he is a good American! He is a Republican! Mr. HILLMAN. I do not want to imply-pardon me, I will say to you that a great deal of opposition from Mr. Dewey's quarters comes from the fact that too many Republicans are joining us, working with us. There is no difficulty about that. Mr. CHURCH. What happened to Libby-McNeil out there in Chicago? Mr. HILLMAN. I do not know. Mr. CHURCH. You have not heard about that? Mr. HILLMAN. No. Mr. CHURCH. It's union objected to your pressure. I will go on to another subject. If your 5,000,000 members contribute voluntarily or otherwiseMr. HILLMAN. Pardon me. Now let us not have "otherwise." Let me say to you, Congressman, we have utilized every avenue to tell the people not to become overenthusiastic about collections. We want this contribution on a voluntary basis and would rather have no contribution than to have any taint of coercion or even any interference. We do not want any money except from those who want to see the reelection of Roosevelt. Mr. CHURCH. Have you, as president of your two organizations, ever recommended that that part of the $100,000 contributed by Amalgamated, that is not spent but frozen be returned to Amalgamated? Mr. HILLMAN. The Amalgamated is anxious to spend moneyanxious to spend money-to further proper legislation. Let us take the Fair Labor Standards Act, which has struck at the sweatshops and has the approval of all consumer-goods industries: Why, that is a lifesaving device for employers and workers in the city of Chicago. Mr. CHURCH. You have never recommended that it be returned to the Amalgamated? Mr. HILLMAN. No. We want this thing to work-they do. Mr. CHURCH. You have never recommended that it be returned to the individual members, some of them Republican, who paid it when they paid their dues or special assessments? Mr. HILLMAN. Pardon, Congressman: Those people, they are of age. They know that they want to build up this treasury so that they can protect their interests and not have any sweatshop, whether in Illinois or elsewhere, to run them as they have done 25 years ago. Mr. CHURCH. All right. Assuming you have 5,000,000 members and assuming they pay in a dollar, you will have $5,000,000? Mr. HILLMAN. If you assume-and, Congressman, on the record, I will settle for half a million right now. Mr. CHURCH. You will only get two million and a half, won't you? Mr. HILLMAN. I will say to you—— Mr. CHURCH. No, no Mr. HILLMAN. I will say to you if 2,000,000 members will make a contribution of two million and a half within the next 8 weeks, I would consider it, you know, as a very fine response. I hope they will all do it; but we know those are Democratic organizations and those people have to be explained to; you have to call meetings and lots of people won't come to the meetings. You could not call a meeting, you know, before Labor Day, because of the hot weather. And so we know, realistically, if half of them will make their contributions, we will consider it doing quite well. Mr. CHURCH. Well, if all of them contribute, there will be $5,000,000, two million and a half for you and the other two million and a half left with the locals. Mr. HILLMAN. There will be $2,500,000 for the C. I. O. Political Action Committee. 63327-44-pt. 1 -6 Mr. CHURCH. Now if two and a half million is back here with their international Mr. HILLMAN. I do not quite get you. Mr. CHURCH. Where is the other two and a half million? Mr. HILLMAN. There is not any other two and a half million. That is all newspaper front-page stuff. Mr. CHURCH. Oh, no. Let us assume Mr. HILLMAN. Oh, the 50 cents remains locally in the State. Mr. CHURCH. They retain 50 cents. Mr. HILLMAN. In the local, in Chicago. Mr. CHURCH. They retain 50 cents back at the local? Mr. HILLMAN. Yes. Mr. CHURCH. The procedure, then, is when the member gets his pay, the company he works for checks off whatever amount out of his pay the president of the local says the member owes for dues and special assessments? I am talking, now, about this $700,000 fund and where it originally came from. Mr. HILLMAN. No; impossible. Mr. CHURCH. I am talking about the $700,000 fund, now. Mr. HILLMAN. No; they have to send it from their treasury. There can be no check-off of this dollar contribution. Mr. CHURCH. You are talking now about the treasury; I am talking now about what happened to each union member when you collected that $700,000. Mr. HILLMAN. All right. Mr. CHURCH. You ultimately got part of what originally was paid in dues and special assessments; did you not? Mr. HILLMAN. No. That is why we cannot get to an agreement. We have made no special assessment. It has come from money in the treasuries. Mr. CHURCH. Not even for what you call the primary fund? Mr. HILLMAN. That is right. If a local organization somewhere has made an assessment, I do not know of it; but, as far as I know, the money contributed by the Amalgamated, or the steel organizations, or the auto workers' organizations, came from their treasuries. Mr. CHURCH. That means they will have two and a half million; if you collect two and a half millon down here, that means two and a half million is still back with the P. A. C. local; is not that right? Mr. HILLMAN. The local organizations then have to decide what to do with it. Mr. CHURCH. All right; now you have organizers; do you not? I mean, the unions have organizers; do they not? Mr. HILLMAN. The unions have organizers? Mr. CHURCH. What is the correct name? Mr. HILLMAN. They differ with different organizations; they go under different names. Mr. CHURCH. What are those different names? Mr. HLLMAN. They are called business agents; in some places, deputies, and in other places, organizers. Mr. CHURCH. Does some of this two and a half million back there with the locals go to those organizers? Mr. HILLMAN. No; it is supposed to be for political action. Mr. HILLMAN. For education and political action. Mr. CHURCH. But you are familiar with the fact these organizers are out getting people enlisted in your cause? Mr. HILLMAN. You mean registration? Mr. CHURCH. Yes. Mr. HILLMAN. Yes. Is there anything wrong with that? Mr. CHURCH. These organizers Mr. HILLMAN. Is there anything wrong in asking people to register? Mr. CHURCH. And there is available this two and a half million dollars locally, if you have two and a half million down here, so that makes a total of $5,000,000, if it is limited to the membership of the C. I. O.? Mr. HILLMAN. Just a minute. Mr. CHURCH. I want to help you complete this record. Mr. HILLMAN. You are not helping, but let us get at that. Mr. CHURCH. Now there are other members Mr. HILLMAN. Wait a minute. Mr. CHURCH. There are members of other unions that might contribute a dollar? Mr. HILLMAN. Yes. Mr. CHURCH. And they have organizers go out to get membership? Mr. HILLMAN. Congressman, why indulge in all those hypothetical things? Mr. CHURCH. That two million and a half back there with the local P. A. C. does not reach you for this publicity we are asking you for here, does it? Mr. HILLMAN. Congressman Mr. CHURCH. Does it? Mr. HILLMAN. If you will be good enough to cooperate a little so as to get to the facts, I will be very happy. If this committee wants to get a check every 4 weeks, you will find out from us how many dollars are coming in, and you will know that 50 cents of each dollar is left locally, and then we will be very glad to appear here, if you have any questions. But this idea of assuming there is two and a half million dollars, and I presume, too, drawing interest, and then discussing how to handle it, is just beyond me. What we are interested in is to give you-and we are happy to appear before the committee so as to show that all of this talk about millions is silly. We have $17,000, or less than $17,000 out of these dollars so far. Mr. CHURCH. What I am concerned with is what you are going to have about 4 or 5 days before the election. Mr. HILLMAN. Well, I will be delighted to let you know, when we have it. Mr. CHURCH. And when you have it, there is an equal amount back in the locals with its use being directed by you. It can be used in hiring and paying organizers that also may be on the pay roll of the local. The organizers are on the pay roll of the local, are they not, at least part of the time? Mr. HILLMAN. The local, or the international, depending, again, on how the organization is organized. Mr. CHURCH. Do all locals account, so that their membership know the condition of their funds? Do you find they do? |