Mr. HILLMAN. I do not think they do. Mr. CADDELL. They have their own income independent of the national organization? Mr. HILLMAN. It is just as already stated, that we expect 50 cents out of each voluntary contribution of $1 to remain with them. They have no other income. We are asking for a contribution of $1, and we are leaving 50 cents in the locality. In other words, they will spend 50 cents of the dollar when it comes in. Mr. CADDELL. That is to the National Citizens Political Action Committee? Mr. HILLMAN. No; I am talking about the C. I. O. Political Action Committee. Mr. CADDELL. The 50 cents that remains with the local committee, does that remain in the local union's treasury or in the local political action committee's treasury? Mr. HILLMAN. It is up to them to arrange whichever way they like to do it. Mr. CADDELL. You are not retaining any control over the 50 cents that they keep? Mr. HILLMAN. No; none whatsoever. Mr. CADDELL. What do you expect to be done with that? Mr. HILLMAN. Carrying on the registration work. Those things are the costliest things-not when you think in terms of millions of dollars, but obviously there is an expenditure attached. They are issuing their own literature. They also buy radio time. CONTRIBUTIONS TO CANDIDATES Mr. CADDELL. You gave us a list of the candidates for the United States House of Representatives to which your committees have made contributions. That list, I suppose, includes all the candidates for the United States House of Representatives to whose campaign you have made contributions. Mr. HILLMAN. That is my understanding. Mr. CADDELL. Well now, have you made expenditures, either by the C. I. O. Political Action Committee or the National Citizens Political Action Committee against the nomination of any candidate? Mr. HILLMAN. When you say "against" in the primaries-obviously when we are for one candidate, we are against the other. In that sense, I do not quite get what you mean by "against." If there are two or three men running for Congress and we have given to Jones, it could be said that that money was used against the others. You can give that any interpretation that you care to. Mr. CADDELL. We want to know if this is your complete list of what you have spent in the congressional districts. Mr. HILLMAN. Mr. Baldwin has been in charge of that situation. The instructions were to give you a complete and full list of our expenditures. Mr. BALDWIN. This is a complete list of all expenditures that have been made and contributions made in behalf of candidates to the House of Representatives. Mr. CHURCH. You say that that is a complete list? Mr. HILLMAN. I say so because Mr. Baldwin is in charge of all these expenditures connected with running the office. That is the situation. He has read the financial report to me, and from my own checking, his statement is a correct statement. PRIMARY CAMPAIGN IN MISSOURI Mr. CADDELL. We earlier anticipated asking you certain questions about certain districts, and even though we have your statement here we would like to ask you again whether any money was spent by the C. I. O. Political Action Committee or the National Citizens Political Action Committee, in the recent campaign, the primary campaign in Missouri. Mr. BALDWIN. No expenditures were made and no contributions were made to any candidate. Mr. CADDELL. No contributions were made. Did you make expenditures? Mr. BALDWIN. No; unless you list as an expenditure the time consumed by our regional director and his small staff. I think that we have three people employed in Missouri. There have been no other expenditures. Mr. CADDELL. Did you have any radio time? Mr. BALDWIN. We did not. Mr. CADDELL. Any newspaper advertisements? Mr. CADDELL. Did you,circulate any pamphlets? Mr. HILLMAN. From the national organization; no. Mr. CADDELL. The national organization did not? Mr. HILLMAN. Neither the C. I. O. nor the Citizens. We have not taken any action in the Missouri situation. Mr. CADDELL. Do you know of any local C. I. O. political action committees in the State of Missouri? Mr. HILLMAN. You would have to ask someone else. PRIMARY CAMPAIGN IN SOUTH CAROLINA Mr. CADDELL. Mr. Baldwin, I will ask the same question regarding South Carolina as I did Missouri. Mr. BALDWIN. No expenditures at all. Mr. ABT. Am I correct in assuming that your questions are directed to the congressional campaign? PRIMARY CAMPAIGN IN CHICAGO Mr. CADDELL. You are right. We are not referring to the campaigns for the Senate at this time. Was any money contributed or spent by any of the political action committees in the Chicago area, including the 10 Chicago districts? Mr. BALDWIN. No expenditures were made, or contributions. PRIMARY CAMPAIGN IN LOS ANGELES Mr. CADDELL. How about the Los Angeles area? Mr. BALDWIN. In the Los Angeles area in the campaign of Mrs. Helen Gahagan Douglas, we spent in connection with that campaign $955.04, as shown on the sheet here. PRIMARY CAMPAIGN IN ALABAMA Mr. CADDELL. And the Ninth District of Alabama? I believe that you do show a contribution to Mr. Patrick's campaign. Mr. BALDWIN. Yes. Mr. CADDELL. Did you spend any money in the Fifth District of Alabama-Mr. Sam Hobbs' district? Mr. BALDWIN. We did not spend anything in Mr. Hobbs' district. Mr. BALDWIN. No, nothing. PRIMARY CAMPAIGN IN TEXAS Mr. CADDELL. The Fourteenth District of Texas, Mr. Kleberg's district? Mr. BALDWIN. No. PRIMARY CAMPAIGN IN MICHIGAN Mr. CADDELL. The Sixteenth District of Michigan. CONTRIBUTIONS TO CANDIDATES Mr. CADDELL. Do you now know, Mr. Hillman or Mr. Baldwin, of any candidates for the House of Representatives to whose campaign you will make contributions by the National Citizens Political Action Committee? Mr. HILLMAN. As to the elections, we have given no consideration to that at all. Obviously, we would have to have a better income than we have before we could even consider the question of making con tributions. Mr. CADDELL. What is your plan along that line? What is your plan for the final financial structure of the National Citizens Political Action Committee? Mr. HILLMAN. Because of the propaganda about the huge sums of money that we are trying to collect, we have set a ceiling on contributions. That does not mean that we expect to get anywhere near it. When we receive money we will make commitments for our campaign, radio time, and other things. Then, if there are requests for help, we will decide whether we will or will not give financial assistance. Mr. CADDELL. I believe you said you would set a ceiling of $1,500,000. Mr. HILLMAN. Yes. Mr. CADDELL. You do not expect to carry on any work by the National Citizens Political Action Committee after this election? Mr. HILLMAN. That is right. Mr. CADDELL. And the purpose of the formation of that committee was to work in this national election? Mr. HILLMAN. Between now and November 7, unless the committee itself decides to the contrary after November 7. Our commitments right now are just until November 7. NATIONAL CITIZENS POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE NOT A LABOR Mr. CADDELL. Is it your interpretation that the National Citizens Political Action Committee is not a labor organization? Mr. HILLMAN. No; it is not. Mr. CADDELL. Is the C. I. O. Political Action Committee a labor organization? Mr. ABT. Let me say on that, like many other questions that arise under the Corrupt Practices Act, or the Hatch Act, I think it is a highly debatable question as to whether we are or are not a labor organization within the definition of the Smith-Connally Act, which incorporates the definition of the National Labor Relations Act, because of the fact we do not negotiate with employers, or have anything to do with the problem of wages, hours, or working conditions. But like every legal question which we have been confronted with, we have construed every possible intendment of the law against us, and because of the fact that there might be some debate as to whether we are or are not a labor organization we are acting as though we are a labor organization and the C. I. O. and the Political Action Committee therefore will make no contributions whatever in connection with the elections. Mr. CADDELL. You have set up the National Citizens Political Action Committee in a manner that you believe could not be construed to be a labor organization? Mr. ABT. It is our belief very clearly and definitely that the National Citizens Political Action Committee is not a labor organization and could not conceivably be construed to be a labor organization. TYPE OF EXPENDITURE Mr. CADDELL. We would like to have you give a description of every type of expenditure that you believe the National Citizens Political Action Committee can legally make. Mr. ABT. It is our opinion, Mr. Caddell, that the National Citizens Political Action Committee can make any type of expenditures that any other political committee can make. To put it briefly, the National Citizens Political Action Committee could make any type of expenditure and would be subject to precisely the same limitations as the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are subject to under the law. Mr. CADDELL. That is, that you can make contributions to individual campaigns to carry on any type of election propaganda that you might desire. Mr. ABT. Yes. FINANCIAL GOAL OF POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE Mr. CADDELL. Mr. Hillman, what is the financial goal of the C. I. O. Political Action Committee? By the way, before I ask that question, let me ask this: What do you intend to do with the money that may be left in the treasury of the National Citizens Political Action Committee after the election? Mr. HILLMAN. Of course, the National Citizens Political Action Committee would have to make that decision. So far we have not got that problem. Mr. CADDELL. You are the head of both organizations? Mr. HILLMAN. Well, I am just the chairman. There is an executive committee; an honorary chairman; there is a comptroller. It is not within the jurisdiction, within the power, as I conceive it, of the chairman to lay down policy. That the executive committee would have to determine. Mr. CADDELL. I would just like to have your opinion as to what should be done with that money. Mr. HILLMAN. I really would have no opinion at this time, because I do not know whether there will be any money left, or enough money even to carry out the kind of activities we would like to do between now and November 7. Mr. CADDELL. But if there is any money left Mr. HILLMAN. I have given no consideration to that matter, and I do not know. It would be up to the committee to determine. Mr. CADDELL. Would it be your idea that that money would be turned over to the C. I. O. Political Action Committee? Mr. HILLMAN. Oh, no; under no conditions. Oh, no, I would say that the individual who makes a contribution to one of these committees would have the choice of making a contribution to either one or to the other. I would say that when he makes a contribution to the National Citizens Political Action Committee, it could not possibly be turned over to the C. I. O. Political Action Committee. I did not quite understand your question. Speaking for myself, and I am sure I would be speaking for Mr. Murray, the president of the C. I. O. Mr. CADDELL (interposing). That was the information that I was seeking. Mr. HILLMAN. I say that even if that kind of thing were attempted to be forced upon us, we would not accept it. Mr. CADDELL. What is the financial goal of the C.'I. O. Political Action Committee? Mr. HILLMAN. The C. I. O. Political Action Committee has a program that has been submitted to you. We believe that labor has always participated in political activities. Mr. CADDELL. I mean from a dollars and cents standpoint. Mr. HILLMAN. I have really no idea. If we had 6 months at our disposal I would say, of course, that we would get at least 80 percent of our people to make contributions. But we have a limited time. It takes a long time for organizations, mass organizations, to set up their machinery. Mr. CADDELL. You have only raised about $700,000 up to now? Mr. HILLMAN. That was from the union treasuries. I am satisfied that whatever can be contributed from the treasuries of the unions, for the legitimate work of political education, I am sure the organizations will provide those funds. |