across the street, and you cannot arrest him for a misdemeanor. These are important things. These are actual projects that should be gone into, the pushing back of this horizon of the officer.

The central registry is good-these officers contact youngsters and have to make split decisions-if we can call one agency. As a matter of my particular county, 16 police departments may have contacted that youngster, yet I do not know it unless I call up the 16 departments. This is another important thing.

These are all projects which should be worked upon. Whom do they affect? They affect people like you, like me, the rest of the people of our community right around us.

Drinking is another situation. As I said, I will not be able to touch all of them, but these are things which bother police officers. Drinking among boys and girls is increasing alarmingly today. This is not only locally, but this is all over our entire State. This is important. These are things that should be given thought. These are things that should be explored.

To tie all of these programs together on a State basis, because all of our departments in our State need help, this department may have handled that situation so, and this consultant can then in turn hand it to another city, town, or village and the other side of the State, or on a national level-here is where it comes in again, a national problem.

A national police consultant, or more of them, can tie all of these things in and assist these various police departments to deal more effectively with juvenile crime.

A babysitter program-here is just another item with which the police are confronted. We have this particular problem of training these youngsters in babysitting. This is a million-dollar business and it affects you. You go away from your own home. You leave your youngsters in whose care? In many cases it is a 14-year-old who has been untrained. They do not realize the different problems that are going to come up. We have had babysitters accept jobs and they have been killed. That is why we have gone into it, to give rules for the couples who leave the youngsters, the rules to the youngsters of what to go into and see, and have their parents contact these babysitter employers. We are going into all of that.

The slum clearance has changed the problem of the theory of where you had congestion of incidents around warehouses, railroads, and so forth, and now it is moving out. The entire city is being confronted with it. It is no longer being localized in a certain area. It is now spread out. On laws pertaining to juveniles, I might say that the youngsters are violating the laws because they don't understand them. I would like to see that we all get together, schools, churches, and everybody, and go into these particular problems, to see that the youngsters have a better grasp of them. I think if we do that, the youngsters will benefit. We need to get together on this, these projects that I mentioned, because they affect all of us in our own community, right back to the grassroots.

I would like to turn it back to the chairman. I know you are limited for time. As I said, I know I can only touch upon a few. Thank you very much for your attention.

Mr. BECK. I think the chief has given us a number of projects which, if developed in one locality in this country, might be emulated

elsewhere. Among them he has spoken of the possibility that one State might employ a police consultant who would work on the problems of jurisdiction between county and townships that plague so many areas and, if this was successful in one State, it might be emulated elsewhere.

He has spoken of the opportunities for having some experimental training of the police officers, not only so they do a better job in sorting the youngsters that they encounter on the streets but so that they are more in command of the situations with which they deal and their own morale is raised and our police protection is therefore improved. He has mentioned the possibility of babysitter-training programs and information programs which again do not have to be carried on throughout these United States, but if carried on one place and successful could be emulated elsewhere.

Now, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, our next panel participant is Mr. Norman Lourie, who is the deputy secretary of the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare. Mr. Lourie has a background which has in the past given him responsibility for an institution, one of America's leading institutions, for the treatment of delinquent boys and girls. He has operated settlement houses in our cities. His current responsibility has to do with a program that affects both rural and urban areas throughout the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

Mr. Lourie, won't you tell us how you think we can launch projects that would prevent and control delinquency.

Mr. LOURIE. Thank you, Mr. Beck, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee.

I am really appreciative of being asked to come today, not only because of the mutual interest we have in this subject, but also because I am pleased to come as a constituent to talk to my own Congressman, Mr. Lafore, who represents us in Montgomery County, Pa.

I want to make clear as I talk that I am talking from the standpoint of the public official who operates public-welfare programs in this country.

I don't believe in the long run that the fundamental financial responsibility for dealing with the problem of delinquency is a Federal responsibility. In the department right now, for instance, we are spending close to $50 million that the Federal Government put in particularly in our assistance programs, millions of dollars. I think of this as a partnership kind of program, a stimulative kind of responsibility that the Federal agency has.

When we talk about the bills that are before you in the field of delinquency I think the public welfare official takes the position that in light of the way we are spending money in this country, public and private money, Federal, and local and State money, to the tune of some $15 billions, and that the question of a few millions, $5 million as some of these bills call for, represents not a solution, but actually an expression of the Federal leadership that can be given to the States in getting something started.

I think that every program that we have in the States that has to do with human welfare, you can find a direct tide of stimulation that came from the Federal programs, and we look upon the small amounts of money involved in this as a stimulant. We think we need the

stimulant because this is the one group of youngsters that everybody has rejected rather than to approach on a positive basis.

I don't know if you know the figures, but of this $15 billion that we are spending we find, community by community, that 6 percent of the community families are using more than half of the dollars and the services that are made available within this $15 billion. And that about 50 percent of the juvenile delinquents come from this small group of families.

In some cities it has been reported that 1 percent of the population produces 75 percent of the juvenile delinquent youngsters. Now, faced with that, it seems to me there are some very specific things that can be done by a Federal agency to show the States and the local communities and to show the private groups that a better concentration of effort and a little more attention to these youngsters would be productive of results. I would like to talk about a few of these in specific terms.

We are a country of migration. People move very freely; there must be some reason why youngsters in families who apparently live in what is a normal culture and don't get into difficulty in the rural areas, move into cities and immediately become the hub of the pathology in those communities.

We think Federal money can be used to help us to learn what it is that we might do to adjust people when they come from rural to urban areas. We think that there is a core, there is some set of reasons that produces this broken-down family as they move and I think that one set of projects, one set of studies, would be to determine what is happening and how might we prevent it.

Second, we think that although this mass of money is now being spent, it may not be getting spent in the most effective way. Just as Chief Proetz says, we are getting kind of a buckshot approach, a whole series of agencies, courts, schools, and public-welfare services in a community shooting out at all these families, but nobody concerned with this whole family. We in public welfare believe that the family is really the hub of the American pattern of life and that if we are going to stop the course of problems like delinquency we have to rebuild families. We think Federal money might come into communities, take a bunch of these organizations and agencies together and say, "Let's see what you can do more effectively to pinpoint what you are doing on this family."

We talk about shortage of personnel, there certainly is one, but I think in addition we have got the question of whether or not we can't find ways of using the short personnel in a better way than we are using them. In this tremendous population explosion we are having I think it has been estimated that no matter what we do we are not going to have enough trained people in the next years to come, and therefore we have to experiment and teach people how to utilize this personnel more effectively.

The thing I think we can do in a specific, way is to go at some of the attitudes that have been developed around delinquent children. You get a tremendous amount of sympathy from private groups and local legislators about spending funds on youngsters, emotionally disturbed children, mentally retarded children, physically ill children, but when you start to try to get people to want to put out energy to work on these delinquent kids you get a lot of pushing away.

Everyone wants to push these youngsters away and nobody wants to be the last line of attack.

I think we have to go into the children's agencies and the local communities. Chief Proetz said, just as Dr. Kvaraceus says, we have got to get the people who deal with children every day to deal with these children, because I don't think we can say we are going to give them up. It is juvenile crime, but the children who are performing the crimes are rehabilitable, and we have got to get people to understand if you give a little bit of love, clinical attention to these youngsters, they can change. We have got plenty of evidence on that, but we do not have it pinpointed enough.

I am very much in favor of the central register that Chief Proetz mentioned. It is one of the most needed projects I know of. You go into a court, the police department, you pick up all the juveniles you will find there, and they are also known to a whole series of agencies but these agencies do not know the others are working with this same youngster and same family. There are many other kinds of projects but I thought in this brief time I would mention this one. Thank you very much.

Mr. BECK. Thank you, Mr. Lourie. I think your delineation of this problem in terms of the fact that 7 percent of the families are using 40 to 50 percent of the resources made available for health and welfare services is going to remain with us. And your statements concerning the small percentage of families in a community from which juvenile delinquents come certainly pinpoints the possibility of some project directed toward helping those families which might bring this problem that sometimes seems so amorphous and so difficult to come to grips with into manageable terms.

Now, next, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, I would like us to hear from Dr. E. Preston Sharp, who has everyday contact with youngsters as head of the Youth Center, a detention facility in the city of Philadelphia.

Dr. Sharp has been president of the American Correctional Association as well as the National Association of Juvenile Agencies. He is acknowledged to be one of those rare individuals who has on one hand a basic command of underlying theory, of concepts concerning the nature of delinquency and crime, and on the other hand operates on the firing line, actually dealing day in and day out with these youngsters of whom we are speaking.

We would like to hear from you, Dr. Sharp.

Dr. SHARP. Mr. Beck, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, in general observation I would like to say that I think there have been more cubic feet of hot air in this problem of juvenile delinquency and less pounds of action than any other serious social problem that we have. And I look toward these congressional bills as being a platform of action which is so badly needed.

It has been my experience to work both in the adult field and in the juvenile field. When you talk to an adult criminal you feel like you are drilling through a piece of granite, you get very little response, but when you talk to youngsters like I did yesterday morning, a boy who attempted to jump out of the fifth story of our building-I said to him, "You are fortunate you are not on a slab in the morgue," and he said, "I would rather be there than here."

As we talked further in concern of what it would mean to him, to the other youngsters and to his family, I began to see tears in his eyes. There is still a possibility of doing something with youngsters, and the percentage of payoffs is much greater than when you deal with an adult.

I think it is important for us before I list some specifics in terms of projects, that we consider some general principles about these delinquent children that we see in correctional institutions.

One of the first things is that in the majority of cases the difference between the nondelinquent children and the delinquent children is that the nondelinquent children pause between the temptation and the act, and in that pause they begin to think, "What would my father, my mother, my priest, my rabbi, my minister, think, if I committed this act?" The delinquent child acts first and thinks second. As I indicated that behavior of the child the other day, he would have thought of the act after he jumped, on the way down.

Another thing I would like to bring to your attention in terms of these delinquent children is that they are unable to put themselves in places of others. All of us in this room who have had the good fortune of having fine parents remember often our parents said, "Now, how would you feel if somebody called you this name? How would you feel if somebody broke your wagon?" And that is the way we begin to get the feeling in terms of what happens to others, if we are antisocial or if we are destructive. These children do not have that type of thinking. They cannot put themselves in the place of others. In fact, delinquent children have a hard time communicating their ideas to one another or to their parents. Time after time they will say, "If I could only talk to my father or my mother."

And, for example, in religious programs, before you can ever teach a child the Lord's Prayer, you have to teach him the definition of the word "father," because the word "father" to him may be a so-and-so who kicked him around at home, that "S.O.B." who ran away from the family, and so when they say the Lord's Prayer they say, "Our S.O.B. who art in heaven." You have to interpret "father" to be a loving human being, who has concern and interest in us.

The first project I would like to see is a project which involves what we call group conscious, which is nothing more than healthy family discussion around the dinner table. That gives us an opportunity of learning how to talk to one another and how to get some ideas and standards.

We have been experimenting with this mechanism or technique since 1957. The discussion is entirely in the hands of the juveniles. The adult only raises questions. One of the techniques we use is by having a tape recorder and then it is played back to the youngsters, and it is interesting to see their observations when they hear their own words.

It is like the New England woman who said very frequently she did not know what she thought until she heard what she had to say. And these youngsters often have that reaction when they hear their own words back again.

Recently in one of these discussions the question was, "How do you feel when your gang is beating on a victim?" And we have some very honest youngsters there, and they say, "Maybe we wish he had taken an opportunity to run away," "We wished one of the members of the gang would say, 'Stop beating.'"