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Mrs. SULLIVAN. If it could be worked out, I think it is very much needed.

May I say, in talking about our police department, they have selected certain of their police officers and policewomen who have special talents for handling that age child—at least from the 10 or 12 up through 16 and 17 age. They are trying to keep this part of the police force just in these juvenile cases but even at that, with the police force being pressed all the time for greater needs in other areas, it is difficult to find enough people to handle the problems.

The police force told us that we are very, very lucky in our area that we do not have what they call organized gangs, although they do have many problems of the younger element running rampant and running loose and getting into trouble but not in the big gang movement that you have found in other urban areas.

Mrs. GREEN. The bill to which you referred, I think, has a total sum of $5 million and, of course, there will be 5 million requests and demands on that money for projects that are underway.

What would be your attitude toward a bill which would provide for grants to the various States, with some formula worked out so that each State could have some additional money from the Federal Government to carry on the programs and projects which they are already promoting?

Mrs. SULLIVAN. Would they have to submit a planned project before they could qualify for the funds?

Mrs. GREEN. This, I think, could be worked out either way. Under the bill, of course, they do have to qualify and they have to apply to the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare for the help. I suspect that some kind of plan would have to be submitted to make certain that the programs and projects in each State get some assistance instead of maybe a half dozen in the United States.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. It is difficult for me, knowing so little of the problem, to put a value on it. I just would not know; but I do feel that, in order to receive any of the funds, they ought to come in with some sort of a working plan that they have devised either through their own ideas or from gathering it from some other way; but in order to participate they would have to definitely, in my estimation, have something feasible worked out for that area.

Mrs. GREEN. Would you favor the broadening of the program so that it would be an actual grant-in-aid to the State's program?

Mrs. SULLIVAN. Well, I can only go back to the fact that it would be a grant if they would come up with a workable plan. In other words, the money is available if they can prove their ability to handle it.

Mrs. GREEN. Would you think that each State would have some projects underway that would be most worthwhile and for which they simply do not have available funds to construct them as they would like or as would be beneficial to the boys and girls?

Mrs. SULLIVAN. I can only speak for my own area. I do not even know if it is spread throughout the State, but my own city and county are stymied in what they can do because of lack of funds. The project that they had started is stopped right now because our city is in difficulty, as I think most urban areas are now, with no funds to provide for it.

Mrs. GREEN. Thank you very much, and I hope that the people of St. Louis realize how fortunate they are in having a Representative such as you in Congress.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. You are mighty nice to say that. Thank you.

Mr. ELLIOTT. The gentleman from Connecticut.

Mr. GIAIMO. Mr. Chairman, I regret that I arrived here late and missed the testimony of Mrs. Sullivan. However, I did enjoy the questions by my colleague, Mrs. Green.

In response to one of her questions, you indicated that you would favor grants to States provided the States set up programs. Suppose I give you the converse of that proposition. Would you favor the Federal Government establishing minimum standards in order to qualify for grants? Would you favor such a proposal?

Mrs. SULLIVAN. I think that sounds reasonable, but I do not think I am qualified to give you a really good answer on that because I do not know enough about what the States have done.

Mr. GIAIMO. You have indicated that in Missouri the local police department with whom you have discussed the problem indicated that it would be advisable to set aside certain police officers to deal especially with the problem of juvenile delinquency.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. They have done that, yes.

Mr. GIAIMO. Have they established such a program, do you know? Mrs. SULLIVAN. Yes, in the training of their own personnel and the setting aside of certain officers, both men and women, to work with those problems because they find that just anyone cannot handle it as well as some who are especially adapted to it.

Mr. GIAIMO. Do you know, Mrs. Sullivan, if this department works separately and apart from the police department?

Mrs. SULLIVAN. I do not think it is separate and apart but I do know that they have certain policewomen assigned to the juvenile court who go out when anything comes up that needs a special officer. What their other duties are, I am not certain.

Mr. GIAIMO. It has been indicated to you that they do favor such a program?

Mrs. SULLIVAN. Yes.

Mr. GIAIMO. Thank you.

Mr. ELLIOTT. May I express my thanks to the gentlewoman from Missouri and say that you have always been most helpful to this subcommittee. I particularly remember and appreciate what you did in connection with the National Defense Education Act last year. Thank you so much.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Without objection, I offer for the record a letter of Andrew Fowler of the National Fraternal Council of Churches, U.S.A., Inc., with which he includes a statement on the various bills pertaining to juvenile delinquency that are pending before this subcommittee; and a letter of R. B. Gutmann, chairman of the Province of the Midwest of the Episcopal Church, Department of Christian Social Relations, dated April 10, 1959, and a letter of Hon. Thomas B. Curtis, of Missouri, dated April 8, 1959, with which he includes a letter from one of his constituents, dealing with the same matters that are pending before the committee.

Without objection, those three letters and statements will be made a part of the record.

(The documents referred to follow :)

NATIONAL FRATERNAL COUNCIL OF CHURCHES, U.S.A., INC.,

Hon. CARL ELLIOTT,

WASHINGTON BUREAU, Washington, D.C., March 27, 1959.

Chairman, Subcommittee on Special Education,
Old House Office Building, Washington, D. C.

DEAR MR. ELLIOTT: This will acknowledge receipt of your letter dated March 26, 1959.

Thank you for the opportunity to submit a statement for the record on juvenile delinquency legislation pending before your Subcommittee on Special Education. I am enclosing a copy of the statement I had prepared for testimony. With kindest regards, I am

Sincerely yours,

ANDREW FOWLER, Director.

STATEMENT OF ANDREW FOWLER, REPRESENTING THE WASHINGTON BUREAU OF THE NATIONAL FRATERNAL COUNCIL OF CHURCHES

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am Andrew Fowler, director of the Washington bureau of the National Fraternal Council of Churches.

The growing problem of juvenile delinquency has given the Fraternal Council grave concern. We deeply appreciate the consideration the committee is giving to the problem. Further, we hope the committee will recommend to schools and governments that they cease to encourage delinquency by deliberately placing at the disposal of juveniles those things that are designed to lead astray.

The council has given a great deal of consideration to the problem of juvenile delinquency and is pleased to observe the efforts this committee is making with regard to the problem and its efforts to have effective legislation enacted at this session of Congress.

We have taken notice of certain bills that are before you: H.R. 3464, H.R. 772, H.R. 1084, H.R. 4694, and H.R. 319. Each of these is a step forward. We feel, however, that a combination of some of them in addition to certain other proposals would be the most effective.

The authorization of annual appropriations of $5 million for grants and contracts for projects to demonstrate and develop techniques and practices for the prevention, diminution, and treatment of juvenile delinquency as provided by H.R. 3464 is an absolute necessity. Also the emphasis given to the training of personnel by H. R. 772 is very essential.

The causes for the gravity of the problem are so varied and complex that a single cure may not be found.

We feel, nonetheless, that legislation providing adequate funds to help States and other units to do research, train personnel, and improve their present facilities for the prevention of juvenile delinquency will go a long way toward alleviating the problem. In the meantime, a commission or some other machinery should be set up to study and encourage coordination of efforts where this is possible. Further, this committee should be able to guard against schools and governments encouraging delinquency under the guise of controlling it. Children do not know what is best for themselves. The responsibility rests upon the adult population. We hope that as a result of this committee's efforts the United States may get a new vision of this problem.

PROVINCE OF THE MIDWEST OF THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH,
DEPARTMENT OF CHRISTIAN SOCIAL RELATIONS,
Milcaukee, Wis., April 10, 1959

Hon. CARL ELLIOTT,

House Committee on Education and Labor,
House Office Building, Washington, D.C.

DEAR CONGRESSMAN: The Department of Christian Social Relations of the Fifth Province of the Protestant Episcopal Church, comprising 13 dioceses in the States of Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin, has instructed me as its chairman to write to you in commendation of H.R. 3464. It is our conviction that the bill, if enacted into law, will contribute substantially toward the control of the problem of juvenile delinquency which is of concern to us as Christian citizens.

I trust that you will feel free to make whatever use seems advisable to you of this endorsement of H.R. 3464.

Sincerely yours,

R. B. GUTMANN, Chairman.

CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES,

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
Washington, D.C., April 8, 1959.

Hon. CARL ELLIOTT,

Chairman, Subcommittee on Special Education, Committee on Education and Labor, House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.

DEAR COLLEAGUE: Enclosed is a copy of another letter which I have received from one of my constituents expressing support of H.R. 3464. You will note the request that a copy be forwarded to you.

Your letter of April 6 advising that part I of your hearings have gone to print is appreciated. I am forwarding Reverend Hunter's letter in the thought that it may be possible to include it should additional hearings take place.

Yours truly,

THOMAS B. CURTIS.

Hon. THOMAS CURTIS,

METHODIST CHILDREN'S HOME OF MISSOURI,
St. Louis, Mo., April2, 1959.

House Office Building, Washington, D.C.

DEAR SIR: We hope you will find it possible to give active support to the bill H.R. 3464, entitled "Juvenile Delinquency Control Projects."

After 40 years as a pastor of local churches or as district superintendent, a little over a year ago I became minister in public relations of the Methodist Children's Home of Missouri. My eyes have been further opened in this new work to the need of more adequate treatment of the problems of delinquency. I would be glad if you would insert a copy of this letter in the Congressional Record and forward my letter to Representative Elliott.

I am familiar with the summary of the bill and would appreciate it if you would send me a copy of it.

Many thanks.

Sincerely yours,

HARRY P. HUNTER, Minister in Public Relations.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Without objection, the committee will go into executive session.

(Whereupon, at 10:30 a.m., the committee proceeded in executive session.)

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