Would you say that that is good stuff for human consumption as compared with butter?

Dr. GUNDERSON. My reaction to that is that we would want all of our foods to be as clean and free from contamination as possible. Concerning your first point, I am familiar with the chart here. (fig. 1) which shows the decline in the use of imported vegetable oils and the rise in the use of domestic oils in it.

Mr. CLEVENGER. That is because of the lack of tankers to get it in here for the production of margarine during the last 3 or 4 years, since the war broke out.

Dr. GUNDERSON. Reversal of the curve starts in 1933.

Mr. CLEVENGER. There were about 175,000,000 pounds of cottonseed oil that came from Brazil just prior to the war.

Dr. GUNDERSON. On that point I think there is a summary in one of these tables.

Mr. POAGE. Doctor, did you ever go into one of these creameries where they were reprocessing butter, reworking butter?

Dr. GUNDERSON. I have been in creameries, but I don't know whether they were reprocessing butter.

Mr. POAGE. You would have known it had you been in one where they were. Have you ever been in an express station in the South, in the hot weather, where they had sour cream, which is the cream put out on the rural racks, uncovered, set out there where the flies can collect in it, and then it is hauled in open trucks? Oftimes shipped from my country to Pueblo, Colo., or Wichita, Kans., both of which are a thousand miles away, and there made into butter? Have you been in one of those places where they were receiving that sour cream?

Dr. GUNDERSON. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. POAGE. As for the stench the gentleman from Ohio so well described, I would suggest that you could stand closer to a pile of coconuts than you could to the reprocessing of that cream. None of us want that sort of thing sold as food.

As to what is in the carton, is it not a fact that if you look at any oleomargarine carton you will find that it states whether it is made of domestic oils or not; and I think you will find on almost all of them that they state they are made from American farm products. As you pointed out, the process began some 10 years or more ago, not simply since the war began.

Mr. CLEVENGER. I might suggest

Mr. POAGE. No; let me finish. I am not talking to you. I am just asking the witness. Isn't it a fact that you could more accurately determine what is in a carton by reading what is on the carton? Certain companies make both oleomargarine and butter, do they not? Dr. GUNDERSON. I think they do.

Mr. POAGE. Here is one of Swift & Co.'s cartons. It tells you that there are not less than 9,000 units of U. S. P. vitamin A per pound. They don't tell you how many units of vitamin A there are in butter, do they?

Dr. GUNDERSON. I don't believe I could say, because I haven't read the label.

Mr. POAGE. Have you ever seen a carton of butter that told you how many units of vitamin A there were in it?

Dr. GUNDERSON. I don't recall having seen any.

Mr. POAGE. As a matter of fact, butter is generally sold under a label that describes nothing; it doesn't tell you what is added or what is in it. It simply tells you that it is butter. That is all you know. You don't know how many rats were picked out of these cans of sour cream, or how many flies were dipped out with a ladle; how long it has stood out in the open or out in a barn lot some place. I am talking about this sour-cream industry, not your modern sweet cream.

Mr. CLEVENGER. Will the gentleman yield for one moment? I would suggest that sometime the gentleman from Texas come up into my district and visit the creameries.

Mr. POACE. I don't want to go to your district. I know what we send up into your country.

Mr. CLEVENGER. You don't send anything of that kind Mr. POACE. I don't have to see what they process. I see what goes there. I see what is put on the trains; I see it loaded on the cars. I see it directed to your creameries, and I know they may reprocess it-and they undoubtedly do process it, because they couldn't sell the stuff they get in without reprocessing it over and over again.

Mr. CLEVENGER. I would say to the gentleman that I don't believe know what you are talking about.

you

Mr. POAGE. I have seen it.

Mr. CLEVENGER. You haven't seen it in the Ohio creameries, and I would suggest that sometime you come there and see how we run a civilized milk plant. Maybe that is why they give you 6 cents a pound subsidy down there for your cream.

Mr. McCORD. Will the gentleman yield for a moment? I am from Tennessee, and I have never seen anything like that. We have sanitation

Mr. POAGE. Are you asking me a question as to the Tennessee situation?

The CHAIRMAN. I would suggest that at this point it would appear to be a good idea to send two or three members around to look into that matter, rather than take the time to argue it here.

Mr. McCORD. I want to say that we have sanitary conditions in Tennessee. We don't send it around in open cans. We have trucks that pick it up, and it is handled in a strictly sanitary manner. I want to get the record straight on that point.

Mr. PACE. Doctor, you were here yesterday and heard the testimony of Dr. Carlson?

Dr. GUNDERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. PACE. To the extent of the subject matter he discussed, are you in accord with his views?

Dr. GUNDERSON. As I told Dr. Carlson, whom I have known for some years, I didn't hear anything in his comments with which I would disagree.

Mr. PACE. Thank you.

Mr. JOHNSON. Dr. Gunderson, I don't want to pursue any further the subject we had up here a moment ago, but to reassure the American consumer, I am going to ask you if the United States Food and Drug Division does not rigidly, with most scientists, take samples of butter out of creameries, and if any of it is found to be adulterated or to

contain extraneous matter it is immediately condemned, so that the conditions we have heard about here would not for a moment be tolerated by the Department? Is that not so?

Mr. HOPE. Not in any State outside of Texas. Does the gentleman know of any State outside of Texas where the conditions described by the gentleman from Texas prevail?

Mr. POAGE. Let me suggest this; They send that milk in cans to creameries in Kansas.

The CHAIRMAN. Will the gentleman from Texas yield? I want to ask the gentleman who stated about the Pure Food and Drug department looking after butter to see that it was pure, Is it not absolutely true that the same thing applies to oleomargarine?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. I was just asking Dr. Gunderson if he hasn't faith in our Pure Food and Drug Division to look after these matters, and whether, as a matter of fact, they don't look after them, except in scarce cases, and when they are reported, as they should be reported, they will be brought into court.

Dr. GUNDERSON. Mr. Johnson, I have the greatest respect and admiration for the Food and Drug Administration. I do know something about it. I have no official responsibility in connection with their work, but I do know it to be a very competent department as to both margarine, butter, and everything else that comes within their province.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. It seems to me that most of us have faith in the Pure Food and Drug Division, and if the public would look to the proper labeling of oleomargarine is there anything dangerous about it? Do you think there is any possibility of harmful matters entering into its composition?

Dr. GUNDERSON. I think in any event it will be at a minimum.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Then all this bugaboo about the public being deceived and getting something that is not wholesome is without foundation, is that your opinion?

Dr. GUNDERSON. I think the consumer is best protected with respect to those products that enter into interstate shipment where the Food and Drug Administration is able to exercise its control. It is my personal understanding that the control by the States within their own boundaries are not, in all cases, as thorough as the Federal Food and Drug operations. That goes for either product.

Mr. PACE. But the interpretation of the Interstate Commerce Act that it not only applies to commodities crossing a State line, but also to commodities in competition at the State line has brought the jurisdiction of the Pure Food and Drugs Act to where it does handle the matter both within and at the State line.

Dr. GUNDERSON. I assume your opinion is much better than mine on that.

Mr. PACE. They cover not only commodities that cross the borders of States, State lines, but a commodity which competes within the State line is within the terms of the Interstate Commerce Act. Therefore I think you will find the Department of Agriculture's Pure Food and Drug Section now has the authority to cover almost the entire field, both within and without the State.

Mr. MURRAY. Will the gentleman yield there?

Mr. PACE. Yes.

Mr. MURRAY. You mean from a sanitary angle, I take it.

Mr. PACE. No; I mean within the terms of the Food and Drugs Act. Mr. MURRAY. Well, take the filled milk people

Mr. PACE. The case that Mr. Andresen referred to was purely within the city of New Orleans, but that man was indicted by a United States court, which clearly indicates that while he was handling only a purely domestic article he was violating the United States Food and Drugs Act, and United States Food and Drug officials went in there and had him indicted, which I think illustrates the point I am trying to make, that under the new interpretation of the interstate commerce clause it covers all complications.

Mr. MURRAY. In the filled milk they comply with the Food and Drugs Act, so far as what appears on the outside of the can, but they turn around and ship it interstate, and while they are subject to a little fine once in a while, which they do doubt charge up to advertising they sell it in places where people can't read and they think they are buying a can of evaporated milk instead of which they are buying skim milk. And we were told here that all the Food and Drug could do about that was to see that what was on the outside of the can was in accordance with the Food and Drugs Act, but there was no responsibility as to whether it should go interstate or should not.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Just one more question, Doctor. Can you tell the committee why the part of the name "oleo" has been removed and this product is not being called simply "margarine"?

Dr. GUNDERSON. Theer is a note in pamphlet 118, on page 5, which reads as follows:

The sharp decline in the use of oleo and other animal oils and the greatly increased use of vegetable oils makes preferable the term "margarine" to "oleomargarine."

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. At the same time there happen to be three samples here before me, and all of them are branded "oleomargarine." Mr. ANDERSEN. Are they fortified?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Yes. "Oleomargarine," "oleomargarine,” “oleomargarine."

Mr. ANDRESEN. I noticed the Doctor addressed himself in answer to one of my questions, instead of saying "oleomargarine," which he did at first, changed it to "margarine." I wondered if there was some particular reason.

Dr. GUNDERSON. I am reflecting the viewpoint of the committee, and therein, as I have just stated, is their reason for using the word "margarine" instead of "oleomargarine."

Mr. ANDRESEN. That is what they call it in England, is it not, "margarine" instead of "oleomargarine"?

Dr. GUNDERSON. I don't know, sir.

Mr. POAGE. Doctor, isn't it correct, in order to use the word "oleo,” if you are using it in the strictly correct sense, it must include some meat fats? You cannot be strictly correct and say this vegetable margarine is "oleo" margarine? Isn't that the reason? It is a contradiction in terms, is it not, to call these vegetable margarines "oleo" margarine. Could you have such a thing as a vegetable "oleo"? You can have a vegetable margarine.

Dr. GUNDERSON. In respect to that the best evidence I have is stated on page 7, table 1, of the pamphlet, wherein there is a group classification of animal fats and oils, broken down into the following smaller sections: Oleo oil, lard, neutral, oleostearin, oleo stock, and other animal fats and oils.

Mr. POAGE. Oleo comes from beef, does it not?

Dr. GUNDERSON. According to this information I would deduce that fact; yes. At least, from animal fat. I can't say whether beef or not. Mr. POAGE. And while they are making a vegetable margarine now, it should be called margarine simply, to give the people the facts, and the dairy people want to call it oleomargarine, and therefore you write it out, to please them-"oleomargarine," whereas the truth of the matter is there is no oleo in it.

Mr. GILCHRIST. At that point it would be fair also to say that this substitute for butter made from animal fats ought not be called margarine.

Mr. POAGE. That is right.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Doctor, I hand you a statement which has been put before each member of this committee, headed "Oleomargarine: Materials used in manufacture, United States, January to August, inclusive, 1943."

I notice from that that the third largest ingredient in the manufacture of oleomargarine is milk.

Mr. MURRAY. Skim milk, isn't it?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. It doesn't say.

Mr. MURRAY. They give it a shower both in skim milk so it will smell like butter.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Milk is 9,000,000 pounds, soybean oil is 17,000,000 pounds, cottonseed oil is 20,000,000 pounds, whereas oleo oil is only 1,000,000 pounds. That shows nine times the use of dairy products over oleo, does it not?

Dr. GUNDERSON. I don't know, sir, whether this is on the basis of solids or whether the milk calculation is based on the natural water content of fluid skim milk or fluid whole milk. It doesn't say. Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Well, I can't help you there. But it does show a substantial use of dairy products in the manufacture of oleomargine, does it not?

Dr. GUNDERSON. That is what these figures seem to indicate, sir. Mr. ZIMMERMAN. And it shows almost a complete use, if not a complete use, of domestic products in the manufacture of oleomargine. There are no foreign items there that you recognize, are there?

Dr. GUNDERSON. I don't recognize any foreign ingredients here. Mr. ZIMMERMAN. So at least at the present time-and I am perfectly willing to accept Mr. Clevenger's statement that most of it is attributable to the fact that foreign items cannot be brought in

Mr. CLEVENGER. Your 1942 table shows the use.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. But at the present time it is made 100 percent from American materials.

Mr. HOPE. That is due very largely to the fact that we cannot get any coconut oil.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I just stated that Mr. Clevenger made that observation. I have no question that that is true, and I hope that