is running the Department 10 and 20 years from now does not look back and say, well those rascals sure should have understood what they were doing and changed things. And we are doing just that. From what we have seen, there are a number of things which reinforce the direction we are going in research and development for new technology. There is no question about that. It is not just for this year, it is so that in the next decade we will see the same progress.

At this instant it is a little bit early for me to project something that might change as a result of Desert Storm because it may have been a direction that we were going anyway. With the reduced size of our services, our Armed Forces, it is all the more important that we use technology to give us a force multiplier. I think that was borne out in Desert Shield and Desert Storm. And that is the direction we have been going.

But let me not stop there. There is an awful lot that needs to be done to make sure of all that. Those studies will be ongoing.

IMPORTANCE OF CONTINUING DEFENSE INVESTMENTS

Senator COCHRAN. I have not had an opportunity, personally, to go through all of the line items in the budget request. We have a general overview that is in my mind right now.

I worry that we might not appreciate the fact that we do have to make continued investments in new technology and modernizing as we go along, even though, obviously, the performance in the Persian Gulf would lead us to be very, very confident of our ability, right now, to deal with potential acts of aggression or with acts of aggression anywhere in the world.

And I am concerned that the euphoria about the changes in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union could lead us to maybe be overconfident about the fact that we do not need to continue to invest in new technology.

So I hope the subcommittee will understand that we do have to make available substantial amount of our appropriated dollars for that purpose. What percentage of the total we allocate to that is something we will just have to debate and discuss and consult with you on, and try to come to the correct answers.

One thing that strikes me as important, too, is the experience that we have had with specific weapons systems. In terms of outyear considerations, not this year as much, do you know of any experiences right now that would let us in on a kind of early conclusion that may have been drawn about the effectiveness of any particular weapons systems where we are maybe considering in this year's budget to buy a quantity of something that does not work very well? Do we have any kind of glimpses into our experiences that would put us on notice?

For instance, I have heard for the last several years that the Bradley fighting vehicle did not work. I was reading the Washington Post, and that is what it said basically, that there were a lot of things wrong with it. But I keep reading the reports now and apparently it was used a lot in the Persian Gulf experience. Did it work? Or did it not work? This is something that I think we need to know.

Mr. ATWOOD. I think that is a vital question. And it does not just apply to the Bradley vehicle. We have heard many questions over the years about the M-1 tank. Will the gas turbine work, particularly will it work in the desert and similar questions.

From the early indications we have, both the Bradley and the M1 tank performed just flawlessly. Now, I want to say early indications, because there is a lot of information we need to pick up. But every indication we have to date shows that those two weapons, which were both, over the years, under great fire, particularly the gas turbine, worked well.

Senator COCHRAN. So there is nothing to your knowledge then, in this budget request, that would ask us to appropriate funds to continue to procure weapons or munitions that we have found out are not worth the money we are paying for them?

Mr. ATWOOD. I believe that to be the case. In a positive view, I think the F-117, the stealth characteristics, proved themselves out. And therefore, it gives us great confidence to go ahead with the advanced tactical fighter, the ATF and continue to go ahead with the B-2 and to look at a replacement for the A-12 program. That is in a positive vein. And there are other positive examples.

TOTAL FORCE POLICY EVALUATION

Senator COCHRAN. One thing that came to our attention during the mobilization and deployment of forces was whether or not the total force concept was a valid one in terms of the immediate deployment of National Guard forces as part of roundout brigades for Regular Army and other force divisions and units.

That seems to me to be something that ought to be reevaluated because of these experiences. None of the roundout divisions were deployed. I am not saying that they should have been. I know that people looked at that very carefully and there was a lot of controversy that swirled around the issue, very seriously, with National Guard leadership coming up here and leaning on folks to deploy those troops.

I wonder whether or not you have plans to ask somebody in the Department of Defense to take a look at this and see what the facts were and give us a report as to what your conclusions are about the facts.

Politics aside and personalities aside, I really think we ought to take a very careful and studied look at that concept to see whether or not it is valid, whether or not it is appropriate for the future, and if it needs to be modified in some way. And if so, let us talk about it and consider whatever changes might be appropriate, if

any.

Mr. ATWOOD. I think that is a very valid question and something we are doing.

I want to make sure everyone understands that the Reserve Forces performed very beautifully in many specific categories. Those associated with the Air Force moved in almost immediately and did an excellent job. The medical department, the Medical Corps, the doctors and the nurses and the medical assistants did an outstanding job. The transportation handlers, those people did an excellent job.

The only question that has come up is the one that I think you are alluding to. That is, if you are talking about a combat infantry group and you have someone who has been in the Guard or in the Reserves, it is a matter that, for their security, their safety, and for the safety of the troops that they will be in combat with, that we be absolutely sure that they are in physical condition, this does take time and that they do have up-to-the-minute training and education on all of the latest weapons and that they do so as complete units.

It would be a great disservice to them and a great disservice to any of the regular forces if they were not in that shape. This is a decision that General Powell and his people have been making as we go along. But I think it is worthy to look at because we need to know how we are structuring our Reserves and how the total force policy picture will work in the future.

Senator COCHRAN. I appreciate very much your responses to my questions. I look forward to working with the Chairman and others on the subcommittee in trying to make sure that our appropriations decisions are consistent with what our needs are in terms of threats that we continue to face around the world and the challenges that we will have with the realities of our financial situation here at home.

Thank you very much for being here and for the outstanding job that you continue to do. And your running mate, there, we appreciate his continued involvement, too. Sean O'Keefe is an outstanding individual. It is always good to see him, a proud father, I understand. As he has already been congratulated, so I will not burden the record on that issue.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

AFTER-ACTION ANALYSIS OF GULF OPERATION

Senator INOUYE. Thank you very much. I believe all of us will agree that Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm will have a major impact upon our decisions, on the size of the military, on military expenditure, and future projections. Therefore, it is very important that Congress receive information in the most objective

manner.

I know that it is customary for the Department of Defense to prepare after-action analysis after every combat operation, and I presume you are working on that now; are you not?

Mr. ATWOOD. Yes.

Senator INOUYE. I would hope that this after-action analysis will be much broader than the ones we have received in the past, for example, after the Panama one.

We would like to know the affect training has had, for example; that technology has had; that tactics had; intelligence, for example. Why did we overestimate the Iraqis? Why did we underestimate certain other things?

We would like to know for example why the B-1 was not used. Many just assumed that the B-1 would be in the action also but were surprised that it was not. We would like to know why.

And as Senator Cochran indicated, there were many who anticipated many failures or setbacks on the part of Bradley and the M

1A1; however, it turns out that they operated superbly. We would like to know what had happened or why it turned out that way.

If you can make it as in-depth as possible, not just emphasizing the successes, but also emphasizing some of the set-backs, it would be extremely helpful, mutually, to come forth with a bill that I think would be satisfactory to you and to the taxpayers of the United States.

I have no other questions, but just this request.

Finally, I would like to make an observation. In our meeting this morning, the word "assumption" or "assume," I believe was used at least 50 times. We make many assumptions. We assume certain things.

But I am certain, Mr. Secretary, you will agree, that in the final analysis, when this subcommittee presents its bill to the full committee and then to the Senate, we cannot go on assumptions. It will have to be on fact and on the real world.

So it would be very helpful if we can continue working together so that when the time comes we will have facts instead of assumptions.

With that, I join Senator Cochran in thanking you for the cooperation you have shown and the candor you have indicated in your

answers.

We look forward to your responses to questions that we will be submitting to you, sir.

Once again, Mr. O'Keefe, congratulations on your new fatherhood.

Mr. O'KEEFE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

ADDITIONAL COMMITTEE QUESTIONS

[CLERK'S NOTE.-Additional questions submitted by subcommittee members, together with the Department's responses, will appear in the appendix portion of the hearings.]

SUBCOMMITTEE RECESS

Senator INOUYE. The subcommittee will stand in recess until 9 tomorrow, and at that time we will receive classified testimony from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Colin L. Powell. General Powell will present his global overview.

[Whereupon, at 10:44 a.m., Monday, March 4, the subcommittee was recessed, to reconvene at 9 a.m., Tuesday, March 5.]

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS

FOR FISCAL YEAR 1992

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 1991

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS,

Washington, DC.

The subcommittee met at 9:06 a.m., in room SD-116, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Daniel K. Inouye (chairman) presiding.

Present: Senators Inouye, Hollings, Leahy, DeConcini, Bumpers, Lautenberg, Stevens, Kasten, D'Amato, Rudman, Cochran, Specter, Domenici, and Gorton.

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

GLOBAL OVERVIEW

STATEMENT OF GEN. COLIN L. POWELL, USA, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR INOUYE

Senator INOUYE. Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the subcommittee I want to welcome you to our second hearing on the fiscal year 1992 budget request and the fiscal year 1992-97 future year defense program.

I know that I speak for all when I congratulate you on a job well done and the victory that we are now enjoying in the Middle East is due in no small measure to the leadership that you have demonstrated. So you have our very, very deep appreciation.

As leader of our Nation's Armed Forces, you should be very proud of the courage and capabilities displayed by the men and women in Desert Storm. Their performance in battle exceeded our greatest expectations, and so we all share your pride. I know from my firsthand experience with the troops in the Persian Gulf of the high state of readiness, of confidence, and high morale. Their victory is the proof of their ability. They are truly among the finest young men and women our Nation has produced. I look forward to working closely with you to ensure that these brave warriors receive the recognition and honors they fully deserve. I hope they receive a warm homecoming from a very grateful Nation.

The successful prosecution of the war clearly vindicates much of the defense investment we have made during the past years. The weapons systems employed in Operation Desert Shield did work and the lives of many Americans were spared. As hostilities end,