Mr. H›WE. Well, I would question some of the assumptions in this. I do not know the context of the conversation entirely.

Teaching and social work have been professions that have been opel to Negroes over the years. This is the main reason that they have tended to go into them, whereas there have been a good many other areas where they were not accepted. This has changed rapidly in very recent years, and Negroes now have much more access to the whole spectrum of economic opportunity and professional opportunity than in the past, but to go to your question of what is to happen to these institutions

Mr. FOGARTY. They made it very clear. They made the flat statement that they are going to schools that are not accredited and graduate as teachers but cannot get a job.

Mr. How. There are certainly these things going on. I am not disagreeing with this. I am just saying the teaching profession and social work professions have been more open to Negroes than other professions. A good many Negroes have moved into professional activity by being teachers and social workers. It has not been a closed-door situation.

DEVELOPING INSTITUTIONS PROGRAM

You are also quite right that a good many Negroes have been graduated from substandard institutions. This is the result of the total process of separate and what has been called equal, but what has really been unequal education. Persons flowing through the educational system which was manned by people trained by third-rate institutions have not gotten the education that they were capable of receiving. So, we have a tremendous job of lifting these people up by the bootstraps. This is one of the reasons for the developing institutions aspect of the higher education bill, title III of the Higher Education Act, which will apply directly to many of that kind of institutions. I would say over the long haul the Negro institutions should become non-Negro institutions.

Mr. FOGARTY. I think we all agree on that, but for the time being what are you going to do about it? Under title III are not those funds given directly to the State?

Mr. Howe. Under title III, funds are given directly to the institution. This should be some help to these kinds of institutions, but we are not going to change them tomorrow. We have a long job.

Mr. FOGARTY. A lot of them do not admit they are substandard. Mr. Howe. I think this is one of the problems.

COMMISSIONER'S APPROACH TO THE NONACCREDITED COLLEGE PROBLEM

Mr. FOGARTY. What do you think ought to be done about it?

Mr. Howe. Again I come back to the desegregation of these institutions, because I think this is part of the solution. I come back to the need to provide ways to retrain some of their faculty members and to desegregate their faculties in the process. It seems to me these are all procedures that will be helpful to those institutions. I think they have a certain momentum in their mediocrity, and we are not going to i this off all at once.

Mr. FOGARTY. I thought you might have some ideas other than what you have stated here this afternoon about these problems. After listening to these people this morning, I thought this was one of the biggest problems in education in the country.

Mr. Howe. The problem of the Negro college?

Mr. FOGARTY. Yes.

Mr. Howe. It is a big problem. In terms of numbers, it may not be the biggest problem; but for a segment of the people, it is a big problem.

Mr. FOGARTY. What do you consider a bigger problem than that?

ROLE OF "HEADSTART"

Mr. Howe. It seems to me the real place where the problem we are talking about will be influenced is back in the earlier years where youngsters get started in school, with the kind of focus we have provided in title I of the Elementary and Secondary Act, if it is continued and increased, and the kind of focus provided by Headstart and OEO. This may be a more constructive definition of the problem, and also in whole scope a bigger problem, because this includes all the people, not just the people who go to college. It would seem to me that in the policy position which the Congress has taken in the allocation of funds, they have identified a bigger problem in that area, and I would agree with that.

Mr. FOGARTY. Are you speaking for Mr. Shriver now, or the Office of Education?

Mr. Howe. No, sir. It just seems to me he has a piece of this puzzle,

too.

Mr. FOGARTY. Would you push it off onto him?

Mr. Howe. No, but he has been responsible for administering, as I understand it, the Operation Headstart, and I think it has had some

success.

Mr. FOGARTY. I think Headstart is one of the best parts of the antipoverty program, but that does not solve the problems of these kids in college today.

Mr. Howe. That is right. We have a tendency, I think, to believe that we can solve these problems which have developed over 100 years, in a year and a half, and we cannot. We can get to work on them and we can do a lot of constructive things, but we have a tremendous backlog to work against and, therefore, the time perspective in which a real solution will come is probably a long term. It does not mean that constructive work will not be done and advances will not be made. Mr. FOGARTY. Mr. Shriver.

Mr. SHRIVER. I am not the Shriver you were referring to a moment ago.

TEACHERS FOR THE HANDICAPPED

On page 5 of your statement you say to meet the critical shortage in this particular area relative to the Teachers Corps, 5,000 teachers began training in September of 1965, 6,500 are scheduled in 1966, and 9,100 in September 1967. Is this the Teachers Corps you are talking

about?

Mr. Howe. The teachers will be trained in universities with whom we make contracts for the training process, and will operate institutes for the training of these teachers. Control of the training process will be in the universities, using their personnel. We will not be directly involved in this. The teachers will be assigned to school systems with disadvantaged youngesters needing such special assistance to pep up their programs. Their assignment there, within certain limits of regulations we will have to provide to make sure that they really do the kinds of things intended, will be controlled by the school system.

So, although this is a federally financed activity, we are not asking these teachers to report directly to us, but rather, to the principals of the schools where they are, who will control their activities within those schools. So, this, no more than any other federally financed activity, would raise the issue of control.

Mr. SHRIVER. Most of them are matching or at least a portion of them are. The money goes to the State and filters down. This is totally paid for by the Federal Government, and you send these teachers where you think they are needed and where they are requested.

COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT

Mr. CARDWELL. I think it would be well to reverse that point, that teachers would be assigned where they are requested provided they are also needed, but the impetus is on the State and the local community to establish the program to which the teachers would be assigned.

It is through this device, I think, that you bring in the community involvement which is necessary to make the program effective. There is no intent within the program to have the Federal Government dominate. The intent is to stimulate the local community to take an action which it has not heretofore taken.

Mr. Howe. No one who does not want a Teacher Corps representative will have to receive one, as I understand it.

Mr. SHRIVER. Like any other Federal program, if that is available they will want it.

Mr. CARDWELL. That is right.

Mr. SHRIVER. That is all I have.

TECHNICAL INSTITUTES

Mr. FLOOD. At this point I would discuss just one thing. I am concerned with the lack in this country of what in the Western European countries and Russia is known as the 2-year technical institute. Upon graduation you get a certificate. Bureau after bureau and department after department sit in that chair where you are sitting before us, and there is much beating of the breast and gnashing of the teeth about this appalling, abysmal lack of technicians. I am speaking of the whole broad spectrum of technicians, whatever you will. I know it will be said here in the weeks ahead by the HEW people, faced with the shock of medicare within the next year, "What in the world are we going to do?" They haven't the remotest idea. It is going to be chaotic. We have this question of full employment. We have here and there skilled and semiskilled shortages now. This, we think, can only become progressively worse, or better, depending pon which way you look at it.

This business of higher education is a marvelous thing. I am a great adherent of it, even at the graduate level. We have been pushing on that. I am also aware of the status symbol of a college degree. I am also aware that many young men and women on the college and university campuses would rather not be there. They would rather be in one of my institutes, becoming technicians of some kind or other.

I am not speaking of vocational training schools. I am a great champion of vocational training schools. I am not speaking of a 13-week course to become a beautician or a 21-week course to become a welder or whatnot in a vocational school. I think vocational schools are the greatest thing since sliced bread in packages, and I would like to see one on every street corner. You couldn't possibly have too many. But that is not what I am talking about.

What do you think? I am not a pedagog. I am a lawyer. But I have been here so long, I am practically a covenant running with the land, or something of that sort-in the good wisdom of my constituents, of course. There is this crying need, speaking not just of men but of men and women.

The second facet of that in the tradition and the thinking of our country, unlike Western Europe, women have been taboo in this kind of thing. This shocks me to the soul when I see so many fine technicians who are women.

How can we fill this void? By making use of the existing universities, of course, if they would accept it. But how do you do this? How do you spring full blown on Monday morning a rash of these socalled technical institutes to turn out these very eager young men and women who want to take advantage of this thing I am talking about? It just is not there in the numbers and type and size and kind of which I am speaking.

I am not suggesting that I have dreamed this up.

As a pedagog or professional, of course, you know this. It has been brushed under the rug to all intents and purposes while we have been rushing madly to universities and colleges and graduate degrees and hoods of all types and colors walking up and down the aisle. I am for that. I will man the barricades for that. But I look over my shoulder and I see nothing behind me.

Mr. Howe. I could not agree with you more about the need, sir. Mr. FLOOD. I am glad to hear that.

COMMUNITY AND JUNIOR COLLEGES

Mr. Howe. I think there is some indication that there are some small pieces of progress in this area. I think we may get involved in some semantic problems here. We do not typically use the phrase "technical institute" to describe some of our educational institutions when may be we should. For example, it seems to me in the rapidly growing community college movement or the junior college movement there are portions of this which really

Mr. FLOOD. I am not speaking of the so-called junior college or community college, which I know. I have not identified them. This is an area for operation, I would hope, because I can feel these things catching on. This community college thing has now overshadowed