Mr. HANSEN. We also want to acknowledge your distinguished leadership in this area; the concern that you have expressed and also the thought that has obviously gone into the development of this legislation has rendered a great service. I think this may very well result in the kind of a legislative vehicle that the Federal Government may use to adequately respond to the nutritional needs of elderly people.

I have two or three questions that go to, I think, the concept, as I understand it, of providing these services in areas and under circumstances where there is a sufficient concentration of elderly people to make it worth while. My first question is: Can you give us some kind of an estimate of the numbers of persons who would have to be served from a center in order to make it a feasible operation?

Mr. PEPPER. Mr. Hansen, if I might, I'd like to defer that question to some of these other witnesses, who are more knowledgeable than I am of the particular workings and capabilities of such centers and who have had experience with them. There is, I believe, about 11 percent of the population of Dade County in the age group 65 years of age and older. I say proudly that I'm in that group.

Mr. HANSEN. Let me raise

Mr. PEPPER. I hope I stay here a long time.

Mr. HANSEN. I guess we'll all be there, so we'll all have some personal interest.

Let me raise one or two other questions and then you may or may not want to respond, and perhaps others can furnish this information. I'm interested in determining the approximate number of these 20 million persons over the age of 65 in the United States who might be served by this program. Now, I come from what may be classified as a more rural, more sparsely populated area, so my concern is the way that this kind of a program might be adapted to respond to the nutritional needs of older people who don't live in large population centers, who live in the small, rural communities; communities where it would be more difficult to operate and maintain a center or even to deliver meals to homes. So, in the course of the testimony by yourself and others, I think it would be helpful to try to

Mr. PEPPER. We do have an opinion, a rough estimate, on that. Our best estimate is about 5 million out of the 20 million of the senior citizens of the country.

Mr. HANSEN. Would be served under this program?

Mr. PEPPER. Yes.

Mr. HANSEN. And can you-have you made any estimate as to the approximate cost to furnish a meal under this program?

Mr. GILMAN. They've been charging 50 cents a meal here at the local hot plate.

Mr. PEPPER. They've been charging here

Mr. BRADEMAS. Sir, if you could identify yourself?

Mr. PEPPER. On my left here is the Honorable Henry Gilman. We call him "Mr. Young Senior Citizen" of this area. He is a member of the executive council of the National Councils of Senior Citizens and president of the Florida Senior Citizens Voting League here. Perhaps he or Mr. McLoud would like to comment on your question. Mr. GILMAN. I would say so far they've been charging 50 cents for a hot meal once a day, yeah.

Mr. PEPPER. That's what we've been charging, about-is that here? Mr. GILMAN. That's at the old centers.

Mr. PEPPER. Under the old program and the one that's operating presently, the charge has been about 50 cents a meal. Now, you can see that if it's going to be that high, arrangements about the transportation costs or the delivery charges will have to be made, because if it costs somebody 25 cents to go to a place where a meal is served and 25 cents to get home, the cost of the meal has increased to $1. I haven't had a chance to explore yet, but in talking to my good staff people, Mrs. Lasser and Miss DeMayo, who have worked with me on this measure, it occurred to me that there might be a way in working in the program the use of the schoolbuses owned by the board of public instruction. I'm not aware of the fact that they're busy around the noon time. Mr. McLoud says that there's a State law that prohibits it, but we'll have to develop a contributing sponsor which can keep the costs down. But the total cost to the individual to get the meal should not, in my opinion, exceed 50 cents.

Mr. HANSEN. Now, you mention that the charging 50 cents does the 50 cents reflect the total cost involved? Does it take into account the fact that someone could be made available from surplus stocks? Does it include the cost of equipment and staff that

Mr. PEPPER. No, the 50 cents represents about a third of the total cost of the meal. The cost of the meal is approximately $1.50, and the 50 cents reflects about one-third of that cost.

Mr. HANSEN. The $1.50 presumably would reflect all of the costs that go into the preparation and service.

Mr. PEPPER. Yes.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you very much. Thank you again, my distinguished colleague, in your leadership in this area.

Mr. PEPPER. Your committee and this distinguished subcommittee have immeasurably progressed the cause of the people of this country and I can't too often publicly extend my thanks for what this committee and subcommittee has done.

Mr. Chairman, if I might make a presentation, on my right is a very able gentleman, very much devoted to the cause of the senior citizens of this State with whom I have appeared with many times in this room, the chief of the Family Services Department, State of Florida, the Honorable C. W. McLoud.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. McLoud, we are happy to have you with us. Is it my understanding that you will speak now and then we'll hear a word from Mr. Gilman?

Go right ahead. The Chair would like to invite Mr. Pepper to come up and join us here and participate in the questioning so long as he is able to do so.

Mr. PEPPER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

STATEMENT OF C. W. McLOUD, CHIEF OF THE BUREAU OF AGING, DIVISION OF FAMILY SERVICES, STATE OF FLORIDA

Mr. McLOUD. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer a correction of my title; although I wouldn't mind being the director of the State division of family services. I am the chief of the Bureau on Aging, Division of Family Services, Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services. Thank you, gentlemen, for the opportunity to testify before this, the congressional Select Subcommittee on Education. I am Clifford Wil

liam McLoud, chief, Bureau on Aging, Division of Family Services, Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services, State of Florida. My responsibility as chief of the bureau on aging is the implementation and administration of the Older Americans Act of 1965 and the 1969 amendments to this act in and for the State of Florida. Our major emphasis prior to the 1969 amendments was the local community programs as provided for under title III of the Older Americans Act.

Title III provides for direct grant to communities on a matching basis for one of three types of community projects; direct services, community planning and development, or training programs for special personnel in aging. We have also accepted responsibility of periodically reviewing programs funded through AOA title IV and title V. We do, of course, maintain a very close liaison with our projects and of the reflected needs of the older Americans living in our fine State of Florida. The AOA Amendments of 1969 have broadly expanded our responsibility to include a much more sophisticated effort towards statewide planning and evaluation of programs both governmental and private designed to provide services to the older Floridian. Through our various processes we have been able to identify several major problem areas of concern to our senior citizens regardless of their geographic location within our State. These problems are, and not necessarily in order of their degree of priority:

1. Housing.

2. Transportation.

3. Nutrition.

4. Income maintenance.

5. Health.

I know that you gentlemen are concerned perhaps with each of these problems mentioned above; however, our emphasis today is placed on nutrition.

Florida has enjoyed her share of research and demonstration projects under AOA title IV grants during the last 3 years. One of the most successful nutrition demonstration projects was right here in the Miami area through the Senior Centers of Dade County, Inc. We are currently operating a "Meals on Wheels" program in the St. Petersburg area and have recently completed a short term experimental project in the Jacksonville area which involved private industry as a provider of services.

Gentlemen, we have experimented, we've demonstrated, researched, and proven that well operated nutrition programs for senior citizens are necessary for health and well being of our older people. We have also determined that such programs must be subsidized in one form or another. We have found that local, county, and State government does not have at this time the necessary resources to provide the type of financial assistance required to implement such a nutrition program throughout the State.

As you know, gentlemen, there are significant changes taking place in the Nation regarding the Department of Agriculture surplus commodity program and the food stamp program. There has been some dialog, I understand, relating to a possible amendment to the USDA's food stamp program which would allow the use of food stamps for the purchase of prepared meals for the handicapped and senior citizens. Although I have not had the opportunity to review such legis

lation, if indeed it does exist, I am persuaded that such a plan would in fact greatly relieve many of the nutrition problems we now have in Florida and in other parts of the Nation.

I would like to digress from my prepared statement just a moment. I did receive the invitation to testify before you before I actually received a copy of the law-of the proposed legislation, and in my thinking and in my reflecting here, as I reflected on the USDA food stamp program, I was not aware of the bill that was to be presented. I feel that as we look at this proposed bill and as we look at the idea behind the use of food stamps, I think perhaps the bill that is prepared would meet that need.

I would be negligent if I did not call to your attention a fact which you may be well aware of, this being, the lack of sufficient funds on the part of the individual is not the only aspect of nutrition problems. We have many seniors with ample resources who are suffering from malnutrition simply because they no longer are motivated to prepare well balanced meals. As an example, Mrs. "X" has an income of $10,000 a year from her husband's estate; she has been a widow for 5 years and lives alone in a condominium on Miami Beach. During her married life she had eight very healthy children, who are all married, very successful and live in various parts of the country with their own families. For years Mrs. "X" had prepared on the average of 25 meals per day which means that she prepared 25 separate meals-she prepared meals for 25 different servings-which were well planned and nutritionally sound. Now that Mrs. "X" is alone, the challenge she once had is no longer present. We find that the eating habits of Mrs. "X" are significantly changed. A daily menu now consists of coffee and toast for breakfast, a soft drink and a peanut butter sandwich for lunch and a bowl of dry cereal and a glass of milk for dinner. With this type of menu day after day there are adverse biological changes in Mrs. "X" which reduce her chances for continued good health and well-being.

Although the above case may be hypothetical it does reflect a problem that is very real; it illustrates the tremendous need that exists for a program that will assure that Mrs. "X" has the opportunity to have at least one well balanced nutritionally sound meal per day. Not only should such a program provide nutritional well-being but should also provide for the sociological interaction with her peers which is an absolute need for the older person living alone.

I'd like to go on the record as being 100 percent in favor of this bill that has been prepared by Congressman Pepper. I would also like to congratulate Mr. Pepper as the architect of this particular bill. I think if this bill were, in fact, made into law, that we could realize a significant reduction in the number of admissions of persons 65 and over into our medically related institutions around the State and around the country; such as hospitals, nursing homes and mild termed convalescent care facilities.

Although I do not have the statistics in front of me, it has come to my attention that there is a tremendous percentage of our older people who are admitted to nursing homes, who are admitted to hospitals, who are there for malnutrition. This malnutrition has brought about some secondary type of illness.

Indeed, there would be a tremendous increase in the physiological and the sociological well being of our senior citizens. And this statement is not mere speculation, gentlemen, it's in fact-it's true. We have witnessed this right here in this room that we're sitting in right now. I think one of the greatest experiences I've ever had was the opportunity of being here at a meal with these older folks and sitting, and watching their faces and watching the glow in them is just wonderful.

There's one other area that I'd like to touch on just a moment, and this is the need I feel to substantiate what Congressman Pepper has indicated the need to involve private industry in it. I believe that government has a lot say government has overstepped its bounds very often, but I believe that this is a place where private industry would be most effective. We had this feeling several months ago and through the Older Americans Act-Title III through my office; we did find an experimental project in the Jacksonville area where we did use a private firm as a third party contract in preparing hot meals for seniors in three situations; in medically related facilities, in a highrise facility where seniors were in group living, and also in the neighborhood living situation. And we found that this was tremendously successful. This company that we have talked with has developed a program where they are going to provide some type of a vending machine where actually a person can receive a nutritionally sound meal from a vending machine.

There is also another area that they're looking at very carefully now—and I'm terribly excited about this-this is what they refer to as "Project Pantry." This is where an individual can purchase once a week a box about three-fourths the size of a shoe box and can place this in her freezer. And in that shoe box are packages of food that are frozen in these containers that you can now buy prepared corn in; just put it in a boiling pot of water.

I think what I'm saying is that we need to emphasize, we need to take a very close look at what private industry has to offer. And contained within this bill, as has been suggested, the provision that private enterprise; that this type of organization can be involved. Thank you.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you very much, Mr. McLoud, for your most helpful statement. I was just observing, when you described to us the "Project Pantry," that it is extraordinary reading that we have seemed to have been able, technologically and scientifically, to put together adequate packaging of nourishing meals to send men to the moon, but have not reflected that same technological capacity and skill to make it possible to feed the people of our own country here on earth. And perhaps we ought to get some of the people who are busy in the great NASA installations here in the State of Florida to direct a little of their talent and expertise toward helping put together some programs that will make it possible to feed some of the older citizens who live in the State of Florida. That's just a footnote of an observation.

In view of the fact, Mr. McLoud, that you here in Florida have experimented with nutritional programs for the elderly, what have been some of the principal headaches that you have run into, what are the problems, and what are the thorny aspects of this kind of an enterprise?