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Mr. SMITH of Iowa. Well, this $1,000 or whatever he gets, he wouldn't have to pay that back?

Mr. RIBICOFF. No.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. My question gets back to this: Wouldn't it be better to have grants to colleges and loans to students instead of the other way around? It seems to me the students can pay it back after graduation and the college is in a poor position to pay it back. Mr. RIBICOFF. You have got the NDEA, which is a loan program to the students, and many of the students are going to need the loan. As far as the colleges are concerned, the cost-of-education allowance is all we felt at this time we could afford to recommend.

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Mr. SMITH of Iowa. With regard to section 225, I wonder if would explain that. I don't quite understand that. Scholarships funds are allotted one-half on the basis of high school students, and one-half on the basis of the persons of high school age." What is the reason for that?

Mr. FLYNT. Mr. Smith, we have weighted the allocation on the basis of the age group, 14 to 17, as 50 percent, and the number of high school graduates as 50 percent. It gives a sort of median between the number of people in the age group and the number of people graduating from high school. We have had in mind to some extent that this is an equalization factor, that some of the poor States have the larger number of people in the age group, but we couldn't afford to go all the way and allocate it on the age group alone. We felt also it would be a stimulus for a large number of people to remain in high school and to do better work if they could hold out the possibility that they would win a scholarship.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. This really does, though.

Mr. RIBICOFF. It about splits the difference between the two.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. In a small way it gives a child that is in a State that has a high percentage of dropouts a better chance to get a scholarship.

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is true.

Mr. FLYNT. That was intended to be so.

Mrs. GREEN. You have furnished us with one chart showing the allocation of scholarships to the various States based on this formula with the two features built in. I wonder if you could furnish the committee with another chart which would show us the allocation of scholarships if the only criteria were based on the number of high school graduates.

Mr. RIBICOFF. We will be glad to do so.

(The above-mentioned chart follows:)

Comparison of estimated number of scholarships allocated to States under the terms of the administration-proposed scholarship bill and solely on the basis of the number of high school graduates in each State

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1 Allocation to each State estimated on basis of number of high school graduates and population aged 14 to 17.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. With regard to this $350, is this set that way for a particular reason? Is there some estimate?

Mr. RIBICOFF. Yes, it is. It is figured out that the average cost across the country for a college to educate a boy and a girl over what the tuition is, is $350. This is the average cost to a college, a subsidy that they are paying to a young boy or girl for an education. This is an average cost. I think it comes up to something like $357, around that figure of $350.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. With regard to this section on page 21 that Mrs. Green asked you about, this would be limited to high school graduates?

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. In fact, I think it says 12th grade. I assume that that wouldn't keep a person that could pass the examinations after 11 grades from taking it.

Mr. RIBICOFF. Well, if it is the equivalent. You mean, if he gets a diploma?

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. We have quite a number of students anymore that in 11 years, do 12 years work.

Mr. RIBICOFF. Well, I would say it is the equivalent of that. In other words, if they can do that and graduate, in other words, that student would be graduating from high school eligible to go into college at that stage.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. Well, the bill, I think, kind of maybe doesn't make that clear, but at least that was your intent.

Mr. RIBICOFF. If it doesn't, I think we could remedy that.

Mrs. GREEN. If the gentleman yields, I think that is spelled out at the bottom of 21 and top of page 22.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. It says based on the completion of the 12th grade.

Mr. RIBICOFF. Established by the State for graduation from high school, so basically the State, if that young man or young woman is able to graduate from high school under your own rules and regulations, then he or she would be eligible. He could graduate.

Mrs. GREEN. The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Ashbrook.

Mr. ASHBROOK. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Let me too commend you, Mr. Secretary, for your comments. When you get down to me, you are down to the last man.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Oh, Madam Chairman, I hope not.

Mr. ASHBROOK. You have already talked.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Madam Chairman, I would like to call attention of the committee that I have some questions, too, so the gentleman is not the last one.

Mr. ASHBROOK. I apologize. I am the last one on the subcommittee, I should say.

I would like to have one point cleared up a little bit in my mind. I see in your remarks on page 9 that you believe we are making progress on the NDEA. We jump from the National Defense Education Act, which is on the basis of loans, and, of course, I notice all the way through you refer to needy and able American youth. In most instances the loans are going to needy and able American youth. I am wondering, it seems a little fuzzy to me, what is going to be the distinction between needy and able youth as far as the National Defense Education Act is concerned, and this scholarship system? It reads very much like this to me and I would like to have your opinion on it-that a student would probably be entitled to get both of them, the loan and the scholarship, but the degree of need wouldn't be much more.

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right.

Mr. ASHBROOK. Of course, I notice in you remarks that you want this program to go to the more needy students-I think you referred to it that way. If both are going to be on the equal basis of need, is that going to the student who is more needy?

Mr. RIBICOFF. In any case, the maximum you can get is a thousand dollars. I don't think that you can go to any college today for a thousand dollars, so therefore many of these young men and women are going to need much more than a thousand dollars to be able to go through college. and some of them are going to have to have loans as well as scholarships. We feel it is not unfair to ask them to pay back what they borrow, but we don't want to put the entire burden on them for the entire amount. We do have the average cost.

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Mr. ASHBROOK. Well, it is likely, Mr. Secretary, that anyone who could get a loan by the degree of need that he has for a loan would also be qualified for the scholarship under this program.

Mr. RIBICOFF. Not necessarily. You may have a loan because you have the need and the capacity, but in competition, as the scholarship funds will be available only for about 2 percent of the graduates, you may not pass an examination or rate high enough in your State to get a scholarship, yet you could qualify for a loan. The annual student expenses for institutions of higher education for private liberal arts colleges average $2,260 a year. For a private university in a large city it is $1,500. A State university in a small city averages $1,525, and a municipal university averages about $1,000. So you see that unless you live at home and go to a municipal college-you couldn't out of your maximum scholarship allowance alone get an education at any private or State university in the country.

Mr. ASHBROOK. In your opinion then, if you agreed that there probably will be a distinction as to the need under the two programs, although as long as it is going to be administered as it should be by the States, it will probably be a fuzzy one. Is it your opinion that this program will not necessarily supplant the loan program, but it will merely supplement?

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right.

Mr. ASHBROOK. Isn't it likely if you have a question of relative need, and there is not going to be much difference between the two as to whether you get a loan or scholarship, that probably you would be discouraging those who would finance their education in addition to their parents' help their own individual efforts through the loan? They are probably going to take the scholarship approach rather than the loan approach.

Mr. RIBICOFF. No, because you have to win it. In other words, you could enter college and get a loan if you had the capacity, yet in competition in your State you might not win a scholarship. In other words, to win a scholarship, you have got competition with other youths in your own State, and you have to win it, but you don't have the same competition under NDEA.

Mrs. GREEN. Before I recognize members of the full committee, I would like to direct one other question, which I think is very important to us. Mr. Secretary, do you feel that there is any constitutional problem about providing the cost of education allowances to the church-operated colleges?

Mr. RIBICOFF. No, not at all, because basically, as with the GI bill, this money is not going to the colleges to support the colleges. In other words, this $350 is going to the colleges to help us educate this youth, because it costs more than the tuition to educate this young man or young woman. We figure it costs another $350, because if we did not supply this $350 there is no reason why this college would necessarily take this young man or woman. We don't feel that if we want these scholarship winners to enter colleges we should expect the entire burden to be placed on the private college or the State university, and the $350 that we are paying to them is to round out the cost of the education this young man or woman receives; so basically this money is going for this boy and girl, and it has a direct relationship with the cost of educating that young man or woman. So we don't

believe that there is at all the same constitutional problem involved as in the private and elementary education field that we are all wrestling with at the present time.

Mrs. GREEN. The gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Pucinski.

Mr. PUCINSKI. I would like to commend you on your forthright statement. There are some questions that come up. I was happy to see on page 9 that you have recognized the very close correlation that there is between what happens in the college and what happens in the high school. You point out, for instance, that we are improving the guidance services available to them in the schools. We are seeking to improve the quality of their schoolwork. Is it fair for me to assume from the full statement you made on page 9, the last two paragraphs, that you do recognize that if we are going to draw this pool of tal ented youngsters for our universities, we have to take cognizance of what is happening in the high schools?

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Now, on these scholarships, the number of scholarships allocated to each State, am I correct in assuming that that number is determined by the public high school population of a State?

Mr. RIBICOFF. All high school graduates. Everybody can apply. Mr. PUCINSKI. I am not talking about who can apply. You are going to determine how many scholarships each State will get on the basis of the number of children attending only public schools in that State; is that correct?

Mr. RIBICOFF. All high school graduates, whether they come from a private, church or public school. This is a different measurement entirely.

Mr. PUCINSKI. This quota, for instance, Illinois would get 1,332 scholarships. This is determined on the basis of the total school population, irrespective of whether they attend private schools or public schools or church-operated schools?

Mr. RIBICOFF. Correct.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Then I take it all children will be permitted to compete for these scholarships?

Mr. RIBICOFF. Absolutely.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Am I correct in assuming that the Federal Government is going to finance the conduct of these examinations?

Mr. RIBICOFF. Correct.

Mr. PUCINSKI. And I think I heard you correctly earlier say that these examinations will be given in the high school itself?

Mr. RIBICOFF. Correct.

Mr. PUCINSKI. This means then that it is conceivable that the Federal Government will be conducting or at least financing, not conducting but financing the holding of examinations in church-operated high schools?

Mr. RIBICOFF. The State commission will hold them in those high schools.

Mr. PUCINSKI. With Federal funds?

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Now, with all of this, I am becoming more and more confused in trying to determine the difference, where you draw the difference in suggesting that there is no conflict, constitutional conflict, in giving both loans and grants and scholarships to colleges, but

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