Mr. RIBICOFF. We have got all the figures here, but we have to add them up. Go ahead with your questions while my staff does the arithmetic.

Mr. FLYNT. The Budget people don't add across. They like to add up and down.

Mr. GOODELL. Referring to page 24, the language that these scholarships should be based solely on ability to pursue successfully and solely on need for financial assistance. I am very much concerned about this aspect. Do you feel that that language in and of itself is sufficient to prevent a State commission from discriminating on any basis against recipients?

Mr. RIBICOFF. I certainly do.

Mr. GOODELL. In other words, you don't feel that under this State commission in Mississippi or Alabama they could discriminate against Negroes?

Mr. RIBICOFF. No, because basically it is solely on ability and need, and it has nothing to do with race. This is the only test that can be made. There is no other test.

Mr. GOODELL. You are well aware we find that there are many ways of seemingly basing these things on need or on merit but of working it out so in the end although you may have a 55-percent Negro population, 3 percent of them end up getting special aids, and this is the reason we have gone into some very extensive civil rights bills.

Mr. RIBICOFF. I say you are not going to distribute this on percentage. You are going to distribute on the basis of ability and of need for financial assistance. The candidates will be taking the tests, and you will consider ability and need together, and then those selected on that basis can take these scholarships and go to any school in the country they want. They are not confined to any particular place. Mrs. GREEN. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. GOODELL. Yes.

Mrs. GREEN. Mr. Secretary, did you not write into the bill one particular provision that the examinations would be given as often as possible in high schools which the students attend?

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right.

Mrs. GREEN. To reduce to an absolute minimum any discrimination that might occur?

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right. The provisions to which you refer is on page 25 in clause (C). This is our intention, that these students take these examinations in their own individual high schools.

Mr. GOODELL. That may give some protection. It may, on the other hand, end up by labeling those applications that are from Negroes and those that are not. Presumably these examination results are going to be sent to a State board, and as they come in in envelopes from various high schools, it would be very easy to recognize those which are from predominantly Negro areas and, of course, we worked on this very hard in terms of ballots.

Mr. RIBICOFF. I would say they would be numbered, and there would be numbers on these examinations and not the high school listed on there.

Mrs. GREEN. Would the gentleman yield again?

Mr. GOODELL. Madam Chairman, I can see what you are talking about. It would not discourage, for instance, a Negro from having to

go over and take an examination at a white school, but I am not sure but what

Mrs. GREEN. Would the gentleman yield again? Is my information correct that in the National Merit Scholarship program, and also in the examinations for the three service academies, the results of the examination are sent to a national grading or testing laboratory and put through IBM cards, and nobody knows the color of the skin or the type of blood?

Mr. RIBICOFF. There are a number of organizations giving these. Mr. GOODELL. I don't think, with all due respect, that is comparable, however. You are delegating here the authority to choose to a State commission, and in that instance

Mr. GIAIMO. Would the gentleman yield at that point? Is it the intention of the administration that we shall not in anyway control higher education, but we shall merely assist the States and the individual schools in supplementing their own educational systems, and that we leave these selections to the States; isn't that our intention? Mr. RIBICOFF. Yes.

Mr. GIAIMO. We don't want to regulate them from the Federal Government level, as seems to be suggested here.

Mr. GOODELL. If I may say, you have put your finger right on the crux. We don't want to regulate. We want to give the money to the States and let them use it the way they want to. Of course, that avoids the question. If they want to use it to promote segregation or to promote discrimination between applicants, then what is the Federal Government doing about it? What have we got in here that will prevent it?

Mr. RIBICOFF. I am saying if they don't give it solely based on ability or need, they are violating the law.

Mr. GOODELL. Now my point is that this is not a very easy thing to pin down, and I will ask the question again: Do you feel that this section and this language is sufficient to prevent the funds being used in a racially discriminatory fashion?

Mr. RIBICOFF. I do.

Mr. GOODELL. To guarantee it will not be used in a discriminatory fashion in any of the States.

Mr. RIBICOFF. I really do. Now the figure you asked for earlier, sir, is an estimated aggregate cost of about $900 million for the 8 fiscal years between 1962 and 1969 for the scholarship program; and $1.5 billion would be authorized in the aggregate for loans for academic facilities. However, it should be remembered that loans for facilities will be repaid to the Government.

Mr. GOODELL. That is just 5 years, isn't it?

Mr. RIBICOFF. $1.5 billion could be outstanding after the fourth year for college housing loans, and $900 million is the total estimated cost for the scholarship program for the entire duration of that program. Mr. GOODELL. Now the latter two, the college housing and the facilities, phase out over 8 years also, or is that 5 years?

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is a 5-year program in the sense that funds are cumulatively authorized to be made available at an annual rate of increase of $300 million for 5 years. In the fifth year the program is thus authorized to reach its maximum level of outstanding loans, but there is no statutory cutoff if that level has not been reached.

Mr. GOODELL. So it is $1.5 billion for the facilities, and $1.25 billion for the college housing over 5 years, and $900 million for scholarships over 8 years.

Mr. FLYNT. That is correct.

Mr. GOODELL. As I understand the language, pages 23, 24, and 25, with reference to your State commissions, the State commissions are going to determine on their own without any direction at all from Washington as to the need of these individual applicants, is that correct? As I understand it here, there is not even going to be submitted a program.

Mr. RIBICOFF. No, if you read on, page 24, there must be a State plan which is approved by the Commissioner. The "Commissioner shall approve any such plan" that meets certain conditions specified in the bill. Now basically this is not going to be willy-nilly. I mean, they are going to submit their plan, and the Commissioner is going to look at their plan to make sure that each State commission is complying with the law that you ladies and gentlemen pass in the Congress.

Mr. GOODELL. Now, in the bill, you have specifically named the things which the Commissioner in Washington shall approve. On page 24 you have provided that it is administered by the State commission, and then your No. 2 paragraph seems to be the chief one, that the State plan provides for the selection of individuals to receive scholarships from among applicant eligibles and for determination of the amounts of payment under such scholarships in accordance with standards, procedures, and criteria established by the State commission. Then the clause, "which the Commissioner finds provide reasonable assurance." Now the only reasonable assurance you ask for in the case of need is over on page 25, as I understand it, in your paragraph (B). Mr. RIBICOFF. No, no.

Mr. GOODELL. You say the financial need of individuals previously awarded in accordance with State standards and criteria as established in paragraph 2.

Mr. RIBICOFF. Under clause (A), on page 24, too.

Mr. GOODELL. Paragraph 2 says it is up to the States.

Mr. RIBICOFF. Subject to the provision that "the Commissioner finds" that the plan provisions "provide reasonable assurance" of meeting certain requirements, including those specified in clause (A) on page 24.

Mr. GOODELL. That it is based solely upon their ability to pursue successfully and based solely upon need. Are you going to require them to set up a uniform system of need, or is this going to be entirely up to them?

Mr. RIBICOFF. Well, as long as the treatment of each student were consistent within a State. I am not as cynical, sir, about the States as some of the questions might indicate. Let me give you this reason: I am sure that in every town and every State and every street every neighbor knows the relative merits and relative income of almost every family, and I can just imagine a situation develop where Johnnie Jones, who comes from parents who are able to pay the college, gets a scholarship when Dick Brown next door comes from parents who don't have it-you can't cut this two ways. You either want State control or don't want State control. I want the States to run this thing, sir, and I don't want to hedge the States around in such a way

that the Federal Government is going to run it. A lot of people complain we want States to do it, and then you give the Federal Government control, and then they say this is bad because the Federal Government has got it.

Mr. GOODELL. I wish you were on television when you made that speech, and I agree with it very, very much. Although my questions may have sounded cynical, I wanted you to answer "Yes." The State boards are going to make the sole decision as to need. I think they are perfectly capable of doing it without submitting any program to the Commissioner and without having him approve whether this is right or wrong. They are going to have the funds, and they can administer them. I agree with you.

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right.

Mr. GOODELL. And do I understand your answer is that that is the way it will be done?

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right, subject only to the submission of an approvable State plan.

Mrs. GREEN. The gentleman from Iowa, Congressman Smith.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. To go back to the question concerning discrimination, you didn't mean this bill attempts to deal with that. That is already in the Constitution and the body of judicial laws.

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right. Basically what we have in this bill, the only criteria for these scholarships are ability and need, and no one else has any right to put in anything but those two things.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. Public funds are being distributed, so, of course, we have all this big body of law covering that.

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. I believe you said that by 1966 we need $8.6 billion for public facilities.

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is correct; for physical facilities of all colleges and universities.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. And that the anticipated resources would lack about $2.9 billion of meeting that?

Mr. RIBICOFF. Yes, by 1965; $3.5 billion by 1966.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. If we make loans for that $2.9 billion, aren't they going to have to use part of their anticipated $5.7 billion to pay back some of these loans?

Mr. RIBICOFF. They will have to from different resources that come to them. They will. In other words, they will have to from contributions, from other resources, they will have to pay these back; yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. So they will still be short then because they were using those anticipated resources to pay back loans?

Mr. RIBICOFF. We assume they will be able to handle their basic needs, and this money will be loaned to them and many can use the loans that aren't able to get the loans at this interest rate.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. This will facilitate their financing perhaps. over a period of years, but it doesn't add anything to their anticipated resources, does it?

Mr. RIBICOFF. No, except that they do have facilities at a reasonable interest rate, and the amount that they need to pay off these resources they should be able to handle from their general income.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. So what this really does is just to postpone their financial problem?

Mr. RIBICOFF. Well, it doesn't postpone it any more than if you buy a house and get a mortgage and pay off the mortgage from your income as you earn it over a period of years.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. The same kind of situation.

Mr. RIBICOFF. That is right.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. But there is no hope, is there, in another 6 years or 10 years, that we won't still need more buildings? In other words, we see no stopping of this increased need?

Mr. RIBICOFF. No, I would say if our country keeps on growing, these are the problems. If it keeps on growing at that rate, they might.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. Now, with regard to these students that get the thousand dollars, how would that be spent? How would you determine whether it is $900 or $1,000?

Mr. RIBICOFF. The scholarship commission will make that determination, taking into account what the income of that family may be, and they will have their own criteria to determine how much that young man or woman needs to be able to finance his education.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. Will this include the cost of tuition plus other costs?

Mr. RIBICOFF. Yes, they can use it for any expenses, college

expenses.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. So in figuring whether the $500 or the thousand dollars, the cost of tuition from the school he is going to is considered; is that right?

Mr. RIBICOFF. Overall, it is whether he can afford to go to college and what he needs to be able to go to college, but the bill states that, in determining the individual's need for assistance, the tuition cost at the particular institution chosen by the individual is not to be looked at.

Mr. FLYNT. Need is to be related to family income only.

Mr. SMITH of Iowa. Suppose we have two students in exactly the same financial situation. One of them wants to go to a university where the tuition is $300 and one $500. Does that change by $200 their need for funds?

Mr. RIBICOFF. He will get the same amount. He is not going to get more money because he wants to go to a more expensive college. Mr. SMITH of Iowa. So you don't get more in choosing the highest priced college?

Mr. RIBICOFF. It is based on the ability of the family to finance an education. If one wants to go to a college that costs $3,000 and one $1,200, the one who goes to the $3,000 college doesn't get any more money than the boy who goes to the $1,200 college. It depends on the need, not what it costs to go to college.