provided in the budget message at different times some $300 million a year for that purpose; is that not true?

Mr. BROWNELL. I think that is correct, on general aid.

Chairman HILL. Yes.

Senator BENDER. Mr. Chairman, excuse me, since you refer to me well, he had the votes in both Houses of Congress, and where did he get with it? We have no-it is all conversation as far as we are concerned, because he, whatever he advocated, did not get to first base with it.

Chairman HILL. I think it is very difficult

Senator BENDER. And he had the votes.

Chairman HILL. If he had had the votes-I think that is where the Senator makes the erroneous assumption-he would have had the program because he certainly very earnestly urged it.

Senator BENDER. I say he had a majority of his own party in both Houses.

Chairman HILL. Well, if we want to go back into that, we might just go back a shorter period than the Truman administration to some things that the last time did not pass, but I do not want to get into that. There were many things during the last Congress that did not pass.

Senator BENDER. Well, that certainly was not the fault of the Republican Party.

Chairman HILL. Oh, yes, it was. They had the votes; they had the votes; they had the votes.

Senator BENDER. Yes, we had a majority of minus 1 in the Senate, minus 1 in the Senate, and I think plus 3 or 4 in the House. We had the majority in a horrible sort of a way.

Chairman HILL. I hope we can consider this legislation on its merits without going back into political history, but in view of the Senator's injection of this question into the record, I wanted the record to speak the whole story, which was the advocacy of the Truman administration of Federal aid to education.

Senator IVES. Mr. Chairman

Chairman HILL. Yes, Senator Ives.

Senator IVES (continuing). I think it is regrettable that we are letting politics enter into this question at all. I do not think we are ever going to resolve it if we are going to make a political issue out of it, and I think politics should be kept totally out of it.

I do not happen to be a co-sponsor of this bill myself; I am a cosponsor of another bill. I am not viewing this as a Republican bill any more than I do my own as a Republican bill. It so happens a Democrat is the other sponsor with me on it.

The problem with which I think we are confronted is to find out how quickly we can get this school construction program under way, and I think the President's bill, the administration's bill, has a great deal of merit. I do not agree with it all. I think one of the problems with which we are faced immediately is the $200 million of which Senator Lehman made inquiry.

I am just wondering if Mrs. Hobby would have any objection if that $200 million limitation were taken out, and it was made open-end? The bill I happen to be a co-sponsor of is open-end, leaving it to the Appropriations Committees and to the Bureau of the Budget, to make

the recommendations in each instance, and finally to the Congress to decide what to do. I think that would remove some of the objections to this bill.

Secretary HOBBY. Mr. Chairman, may I say to the Chairman and the members of this committee that I have not had much experience in Washington, but I hope I am too wise ever to suggest to a Senate committee what it does with an executive proposal?

Senator IVES. Well, you would have no objection to having it openend, would you?

Secretary HOBBY. Sir, we will operate and do the best we can with any bill passed by the Congress of the United States.

Senator IVES. Thank you.

Chairman HILL. May I interrupt you one minute to say that I am glad the Senator from New York made the observation he did about no politics. Surely I hope we may proceed to consider this compelling question on its merits without injecting politics.

Senator BENDER. Mr. Chairman

Chairman HILL. But I think the record will have to be kept straight. Senator BENDER. I did not inject politics; the chairman did. I was merely talking about the President and the administration, and they are in power.

Chairman HILL. The Senator asked the first question that brought in politics about previous administrations, but I think we might let Mrs. Hobby proceed.

Secretary HOBBY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SMITH. I would like to ask Mrs. Hobby one question at this point to see whether you made this study and can give the answer to this question. A very eminent member of the Senate, and I will say he is on the Democratic side, came to me the other day and he said that he was convinced in his own mind and from his own study that one of the difficulties is that the States have not realized the priority that ought to be given to education. He expressed the view that he thought that every State, if it had the heat put on them, could finance its own school problem if it did not run into other areas of using the State's money.

I assume you have figured in your calculations upon this bill that there are a group of States certainly that can take care of their needs— I am not sure I am right about this, but I am pretty sure that my State of New Jersey does not need to have any Federal aid for its school program. It may have to make an appeal that it be released on some tax sources, because taxation is so heavy, all the money is brought down here, and then a State, of course, is put in a tough position, but I think we can think in terms of this whole study of those groups of States that certainly take care of their needs, and focus our attention on the ones that need the type of aid you are suggesting in this bill.

Is it true that there some States that you are pretty well satisfied are able to take care of their school district needs and would prefer to, provided, of course, their tax revenues are available?

Secretary HOBBY. Senator, there are 2 or 3 charts which I think answer that question much more expertly than I could when we talk about the bond limits and tax rates. I think the charts highlight the question you just asked. Would you be willing to

Senator SMITH. Oh, certainly.

Secretary HOBBY (continuing). Get your answer from the charts? Because I think

Senator SMITH. I just wanted to get that point in the record.
Secretary HOBBY. The charts show them very graphically.

Senator SMITH. There is a large part of opinion in this country which believes that the States have not put enough emphasis on the priority of education to the children. They should be challenged to do that; they should be offered every inducement from the Federal Government, but they will not get it if they simply get it from grantsin-aid.

Secretary HOBBY. Senator, that is exactly what this attempt, this approach attempts to do. The President's concern is to be sure that children in school districts which lack the economic resources, and who are not given the opportunity to have a comparable education, have an opportunity to have that education.

Senator PURTELL. Mr. Chairman

Chairman HILL. The Senator from Connecticut.

Senator PURTELL (continuing). May I make an observation. The Secretary has come down here with charts. No doubt, in the testimony she will give this morning she and her associates will answer many of the questions which will arise in our minds now.

I wondered if, perhaps, we would not expedite the matter if we would let the Secretary proceed with her testimony and then, perhaps, ask our questions after her testimony has been given.

Chairman HILL. I think Senator Lehman has one question he wants to ask.

Senator LEHMAN. I have one more question.

Chairman HILL. Then we will go right ahead with Dr. Brownell. Senator LEHMAN. I need not assure Mrs. Hobby that we will have the same results and hopes in mind.

Secretary HOBBY. I am sure of that.

Senator LEHMAN. We want to increase the schoolrooms of this Nation, and I am told about 320,000 additional are needed.

But, Madam Secretary, you have in your preliminary remarks emphasized the fact that the program which you have submitted will build schools quickly, and that is a tremendously important consideration.

Now, there are two things, two titles in this bill, that seem to me to be of the most importance, title I and title III.

We have heard much about the $750 million bond issue that could be used for the purchase of bonds which otherwise would not be salable. But there are a number of conditions that are attached to that. For instance, the $750 million or any part of it could be used only in the event that the bonds could not be sold at a rate less than 3% percent. Now, according to the records I have seen, out of more than $2 billion worth of school bonds that have been sold last year, only $76 million were sold or offered at a rate more than 3% percent. So it is fair to assume that even under this bill all that this fund could make available would be approximately $75 million a year; that is all. The other thing I wanted to bring up is that I said I did not know the average costs of classroom construction, but I have been told that the cost of a schoolroom averages about $30,000.

Secretary HOBBY. $30,000 a classroom.

Senator LEHMAN. Now, that rate, at $65 million, would provide for only 2,000 additional schoolrooms, per annum. Now, I realize that is a matching proposition.

Secretary HOBBY. Yes.

Senator LEHMAN. And the States would also advance the same amount of money.

Secretary HOBBY. Yes.

Senator LEHMAN. But even granting that, the increase would only be 4,000 schoolrooms a year, which would certainly be very, very inadequate, in my opinion.

Secretary HOBBY. You are sure there are that many school districts in the United States- are you sure of the number of school districts in the United States with proved need and proved lack of local income? We could never determine it, Senator Lehman, and to arrive at what makes a district incapable of financing its own obligation is a very difficult test.

One has to examine the tax effort, economic resources, so many things; there are so many variables, as you know from your long experience in the financial world, that it would be almost impossible to get a measure of what that district needs.

This seemed to us the best way that could be devised to determine what the market would take. Now, the figure you mention of $76 million, I think, during this current rate, selling above 31% is a correct figure. I am sure we got our information from the same sources. What we do not know is how many school districts in the United States, had they had reasonable hope that they could have sold for 3%, would have built. But there again you will get so much of this on the charts that it would be, I think, helpful to you if you saw it on the charts.

Chairman HILL. Dr. Brownell, will you proceed, then, please, sir. Senator NEELY. Mr. Chairman, I hope that it will not be considered an unpardonable asperity for me to disassociate myself, as I now do, from an observation made by a distinguished member on the other side of the table, to the effect that Mrs. Hobby, had not tried to "buffalo" the President. I object to a comparison of the action of any lady with the action of any buffalo, and underscore my objection, when the lady has the voice of a nightingale and the appearance of a bird of paradise. [Laughter.]

Chairman HILL. All right, Doctor.

Dr. BROWNELL. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate very much this chance to appear again before this committee to discuss with you the problem of the public school classroom situation, and before turning to the charts, I would like to just bring up to date a few facts in reference to the situation, because so many figures are utilized in statements about classrooms.

Thousands of children are attending classes only part time, or under severe conditions of overcrowding that militate against good education. This is due to a long standing deficit of classrooms. To provide room for these children requires the construction of approximately 90,000 classrooms costing $3 billion or more, just to eliminate the overcrowded situation.

Approximately 210,000 additional classrooms are needed to replace the persistent deficit of unsafe or outmoded schools that has accumulated over the years.

Our latest information indicates that the Nation must construct 50,000 classrooms for approximately 1,500,000 schoolchildren each year, merely to keep up with increasing enrollments over the next 10 years. It is necessary also to replace approximately 8,000 classrooms housing approximately 240,000 children, because such classrooms become unsafe or otherwise unsuitable.

During the current school year, new classrooms are being constructed sufficient to house approximately 1,800,000 children. The cost is more than $2 billion. This is an alltime high in school construction. At this rate of construction the Nation could keep abreast of its annual need for more classrooms and for replacements.

When you come to an analysis of the need for school buildings, I would like to refer to the chart, and you will notice the points that I have made, namely, that we have had a deficit of classrooms for a considerable period of time; that there will be need for an increased number of classrooms as we look ahead; also there is the problem that I have mentioned of the replacement of classrooms.

Now, recognizing that the present rate of construction will take care of the increased enrollment and the replacements, and a little bit more, it would mean if we continued at the present high rate we would eat into this deficit but still it would be a slow process to eliminate that deficit of approximately 300,000 classrooms. Our program proposes to step up the construction of school buildings so that we will not continue to have those thousands of children who are now in overcrowded classrooms or who are in the unsafe and the unsuitable classrooms.

Now, the next thing that we did was to analyze conditions that make this overcrowded situation what it is, and we found that it is largely in rapidly growing suburbs and in certain other areas.

Classrooms needing replacement are greater in certain States than in others, and studies of recent preliminary information on classroom shortages, which is furnished by over half of the States representing all sections of the Nation, show quite clearly these interesting facts:

In the Nation, most of the shortage is concentrated within a few States. From 27 States reporting, 2 States have one-third of the shortage and 5 States have over one-half of the shortage. These States are the ones which have experienced large, rapid growth.

Within the States, most of the shortage is concentrated within a small part of the districts-the districts which have had large rapid growth. In 1 state, for example, almost one-third of the classroom shortage is in 1 county. In another State, 9 counties out of 57 account for 65 percent of the shortage. In still another, half of the shortage is in 2 counties.

In metropolitan areas, the critical shortages are appearing in the fringe or suburban areas previously described. Here the movement is out from the center of cities. This causes new demands in new areas because of the movement from schools in disadvantageous locations within the cities.

Studies of population movements show large migration from one region of the country to another, from rural areas to urban areas, and from the center of urban districts to the fringe of such districts. These facts are contributing significantly to the pattern of school needs in this country. The pattern of shortages is thus more complex than it