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In other words, you speak about the $750 million in title I. You expect to get all of that back, do you not?

Secretary HOBBY. I think there is a very good chance that we would, Senator Hill. There is a prior governmental experience on the purchase of school bonds, and it was a good experience.

The $200 million authorization you would not get back. That would be an outright grant. The $20 million in title IV you would not get back. I would prefer for you to address a financial question later, but I think it would take you a period of years to determine what your outlay was in title II.

We believe it is set up on a sound financial basis, so that the Federal Government's and the States' credit would be protected there, but there is no guaranty.

Chairman HILL. Well, of course, title II is $150 million, is it not? Secretary HOBBY. Yes.

Chairman HILL. You do expect to get that back, Dr. Brownell? Secretary HOBBY. I hope we will.

Chairman HILL. Then you expect to get back the $150 million, and you expect to get back that $750 million. That all comes back to the Federal Government.

Then the only Federal permanent outlay would be the $200 million in title III; is that right?

Secretary HOBBY. We hope that would be true, sir. We hope that the Federal Government could serve as a catalyst in stimulating State and local aid in schools.

We think the objective, Senator Hill, is to build schools. We believe that this program does it. We do not believe that just dollar grants will build the number of schools that are needed in the United States. Chairman HILL. But you plan under your proposal to get back the $750 million, and also the $150 million?

Secretary HOBBY. I do hope the Federal Treasury will recover that

sum.

Chairman HILL. And your proposal is set up that way in the hope and with the plan that you will get that money back?

Secretary HOBBY. That the Federal Treasury will get it back, sir. Chairman HILL. That the Federal Treasury will get it back. So, then, the only real permanent Federal outlay would be the $200 million for the entire 3-year period; is that not right?

Secretary HOBBY. That is correct.

Chairman HILL. That is correct?

Secretary HOBBY. You have analyzed it correctly, sir.
Chairman HILL. All right.

Senator BENDER. Mr. Chairman, if you would not object, I would like to

Chairman HILL. Do you want to ask Mrs. Hobby a question?

Senator BENDER. I would like to ask Mrs. Hobby a question. The reason I am doing this out of turn, we Republicans have these Lincoln Day meetings, and I have to go to Pennsylvania shortly, and under the circumstances I cannot be here for the entire hearings, and I would appreciate it if you would give me the privilege of asking this question now.

Chairman HILL. Go right ahead, Senator.

Senator BENDER. The executive secretary, Mrs. Hobby, of the National Education Association, who will be a witness before this com

mittee tomorrow, is quoted in this morning's press as follows, and I quote him verbatim:

The NEA regrets, however, that the department of Health, Education, and Welfare, upon whose advice the President must necessarily rely, has provided Congress with proposals that will not begin to meet the need and that will, if adopted, impose upon our schools more Federal control than any bills proposed in recent years.

Now, Mrs. Hobby, this statement implies that you and your Department are falsely advising the President, that you and your Department are leading him down the wrong road on the matter of aid to school construction.

Now, would you care to comment on that for the record?

Secretary HOBBY. Yes, sir; I certainly would.

In the first place, Mr. Chairman, the President of the United States has a deep interest in education and had a knowledge of it prior to his coming to Washington. You know of his great interest in it at Columbia University, and I think he had a great experience with the results of the educational system as he commanded our troops all over the world.

The President of the United States needs very little advice about the educational shortages in this country. He is aware of them, and he has definite ideas about how they should be met, and met quickly.

That, I hope, answers your question, Senator Bender. I do not think the President of the United States has been given bad advice; he has very positive opinions of his own.

Senator BENDER. You are not trying to "buffalo" him, then?

Secretary HOLBY. Well, sir, what would you think about somebody trying to "buffalo" him?

Senator BENDER. I do not think much of anyone's trying to "buffalo" him, and I know from your experience and I have great respect for you, and I know that these charges that have been madethis chaff has been thrown around about your Department having some bad influence on the President and having a program that is not workable, certainly is unworthy of the people who make the charges, and I want to say that emphatically, and I want to say emphatically, too, that I believe that President Eisenhower is just as alert about this and, just as you say, as he is on our defense system and our whole program, and in every other respect, and I applaud you and your program, and I think it is altogether workable, and I believe that this will provide relief more quickly and more adequate relief than any other program suggested.

Is it not your view that every one of these programs, for example, the Hill bill, the Hill formula, would require legislative enactments in the States and a cooperative effort on their part, and would require some implementing, as far as the States are concerned?

Secretary HOBBY. We believe that in most States it would. That is a very difficult question to answer factually, Senator Bender, because, as you know, the State laws vary, and it will depend upon the laws authorizing States to accept Federal grants. It will depend upon whether States have appropriated money and have it available to match Federal grants.

If that is not true, it will go over to the next session of the State legislatures, as you know; and there surely must be some State action

if the neediest districts in the States are to be aided. But there are 48 different laws.

Some few of the States have State financial assistance for school construction. But in many of those States it is a specialized type of construction; it does not always go to general construction.

There are many other States which have no State school construction aid to local districts, so it is quite a crisscross pattern.

I believe in Dr. Brownell's testimony some of the pertinent answers to your question will be more clearly resolved.

Senator BENDER. Just one more question.

Mrs. Hobby, is it correct to say that the proposal that is now before us is the first time that the executive has developed and requested the enactment of a Federal school-aid program?

Do you know of any other program that has ever been suggested as a Federal program by the executive department?

Secretary HOBBY. I asked Dr. Brownell because I did not know, Senator Bender. He says he believes not for school construction. Senator BENDER. I am not aware of any, and I have not been here as long as some of these other folks-I have only been here 14 years and I have not been aware of any program that any other administration has suggested that is workable, and that would give us relief immediately. Thank you very much.

Senator LEHMAN. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

Chairman HILL. Yes.

Senator LEHMAN. May I ask a question of you, Madam Secretary? Title III provides for $200 million on a matching basis with the States. I believe that is for a period of 3 years?

Secretary HOBBY. Yes, sir.

Senator LEHMAN. Or approximately $65 million a year.

I wonder whether you could tell us how many new classrooms that amount of money would provide in comparison to the approximately 320,000 classrooms that are needed today?

Secretary HOBBY. I do not think that anyone can answer that question factually, Senator Lehman, because if you remember the "orana proposed in title III, it is to districts of proved need and proved lack of local income who could not qualify under titles I and II.

A school district—and I think this will be illustrated more sharply— a school district might have the economic resources either to issue bonds for $100,000 for a school building or to pay rent on a $100,000 school building, but it might need a $175,000 school building or a $200,000 school building.

The balance would be made up by a grant. In other words, under title III of this bill, the needy school districts of the Nation have an opportunity to be put on an equal basis as far as their classrooms are concerned and the suitability of their classrooms with the so-called richer districts, although I do not believe that anyone could tell you how many classrooms that would build because this is "seed money," in effect, or, more roughly speaking, it is a down payment which places a school district in a position to rely on its economic resources for the rest of its indebtedness.

Senator LEHMAN. Well, of course, where a State is in a position to make grants directly or where a school district is in a position to finance itself directly, this would not be needed. But the fact remains

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that this only provides $65 million in the shape of grants matched by the States, and although I have not got available the figures showing the average cost of the construction of a schoolroom, my impression would be that this $65 million would provide very few additional schoolrooms, and we still need 320,000 schoolrooms. It would be a very small drop in the bucket, you see.

Secretary HOBBY. Title III, taken alone, Senator Lehman, would, in my opinion, be an inadequate approach as, in my opinion, a grant title of any kind taken alone is an inadequate approach to the school construction problems of this nation.

Senator LEHMAN. Thank you very much.

Secretary HOBBY. Thank you.

Chairman HILL. Before a school district could get any under title III it would first have to show it could not come under title I or title II; is that correct, Mrs. Hobby?

Secretary HOBBY. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman HILL. Now, speaking of this matter of matching which my friend from Ohio, Senator Bender, raised, is it not a fact that the States and local communities last year spent some $2 billion for school construction?

Secretary HOBBY. The current rate of school construction is about $2 billion.

Chairman HILL. Well, it is reasonable to expect that a large part, if not all, of that $2 billion would be available for matching Federal funds; is that not correct?

Secretary HOBBY. I am not sure how they would do that. Would

you

Chairman HILL. Well, if a local community had so much money and wanted to build schoolhouses, and the Federal Government were prepared to help build those schoolhouses, the community would be ready to put up its part and have the Federal Government put up its part, would it not?

Secretary HOBBY. Oh, I see.

Chairman HILL. $2 billion as a backlog for matching.
Secretary HOBBY. I see.

That question would suggest that the Federal Government would be helping the district which would be completely able to finance its own schools.

Chairman HILL. Well, I would not say that it was completely able, for this reason: You are assuming something that the record does not confirm.

Secretary HOBBY. Perhaps I misunderstood your question.

Chairman HILL. The State and local districts are spending about $2 billion.

Secretary HOBBY. Yes, that is right.

Chairman HILL. And the figures before this committee show that we need about $10 billion or $12 billion worth of school construction. Secretary HOBBY. Various estimates, as you know, Senator Hill, have come out of the State school facilities survey-it is very hard to nail down a figure about the classroom shortage on which everybody in the United States would be in agreement.

The State school facilities survey, which is the only national survey that we have, is now 2 years old. So I do not believe that anyone

can say with absolute certainty what the classroom shortage in the United States is.

We believe it is over 300,000 classrooms, and that shortage, that deficit, having existed as long as it has, makes it almost imperative that we find a way to deal with it in a short period of time, which is one of the reasons why we tried to devise a plan that would take care of a deficit which has been building up now since 1930.

Since 1930, many children have been going to school in unsafe, unhealthful schoolhouses, and going into overcrowded rooms and, as you know now, double shifts and in some areas triple shifts.

Now, this thing is at such a point, having continued from 1930 to 1955, that I suppose there are children who have gone all the way through their school lives in some such school building.

It occurred to us, with this situation being as serious and as critical as it is, that we had to find a way to put billions of dollars to work fast, so we would keep another generation from going to school in such buildings.

Chairman HILL. And that we begin now to build these needed school buildings.

Secretary HOBBY. Yes, sir.

Chairman HILL. Senator Bender referred to Dr. Carr's statement which appeared in the Washington Post this morning.

Did you happen to see, Mrs. Hobby, the article that Dr. Benjamin Fine wrote in the New York Times of last Sunday under the caption "Education in the News"?

Secretary HOBBY. Senator Hill, I will tell you what I was doing last Sunday; I was working on this testimony at the office, so I did not get to read it.

Chairman HILL. I can well understand why you did not see this article, but I think this article is very much in line with this testimony. It shows that Dr. Carr is not by himself in his criticism of your proposals.

Secretary HOBBY. Oh, I am sure that is true.

Chairman HILL. The fact of the business is, and I quote this from the article, that he mentions:

The chorus of disapproval voiced by prominent educators and prominent educational groups

and then he goes on to say,

too inadequate and too cumbersome was the general reaction to the White House program.

Secretary HOBBY. Yes, sir; I can understand that, because too many people do not understand how difficult it is to prepare a bill which will help 63,000 school districts in 48 States.

I do not think we should ever make the mistake of confusing complexity with perplexity. This is a comprehensive bill which will help the 48 States and the 63,000 school districts, and I see no need to be perplexed just because we have a complex situation to deal with.

Chairman HILL. I do not want to get into a political argument about the past, but Senator Bender made his comment about no other administration's setting up a school construction program. Dr. Brownell, to get the whole picture, the truth is that the Truman administration advocated general Federal aid to education, and even

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