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Senator DOUGLAS. Surely.

Senator IVES. I think what he said where title I and title II are concerned is probably rather accurate. But I do want to point out that title III still exists in the bill, and while larger cities, probably most of them, would not be able to take advantage of it because of their methods of financing school construction, the fact remains that under the Hill bill to which reference has been made, cities, like New York and Chicago, would get very little benefit because the amount they would receive is relatively small.

The only bill before us where they would get any kind of a break, and I am not trying to sell that bill at the moment, is a bill of which I am the cosponsor.

Chairman HILL. You mean New York would get a lot from New York State.

Senator IVES. We would get a lot more out of the bill I introduced on a 50-50 matching basis than we would under the one you introduced.

Senator PURTELL. You would get more of your money back.

Senator IVES. That is what Senator Douglas is really talking about; that is the bill he should support.

Chairman HILL. Do you wish to comment there, Dr. Brownell?

Dr. BROWNELL. Well, I just wanted to comment that part of this problem of financing again goes back to the question of how you finance.

If you have the money raised by the Federal Government and then channeled back to the communities, that is one way of doing it.

The other is to have it come from the communities. And let's talk in terms of the income tax; for every billion dollars of income tax collected, let's take this situation in Illinois, $75 million plus comes from Illinois, and on the basis of the allocation of funds, for each billion dollars that would be appropriated for school construction under the bill that has been referred to by Senator Ives, there would go back to Illinois some $51 million, and in connection with the State of New York, with $157 million out of each billion dollars collected in Federal taxes, some $82 million under that bill woud go back to the State of New York.

Now, if we were to take the provisions of the bill S. 5, for every billion dollars there would go back to Illinois something like $32 million from the collection of $75 million, and there would go to the State of New York something like $46 million from the collection of $157 million.

I only point it out to indicate that in terms of the question of how this should be financed, it has to be financed from the people some place, and as I see it, we are talking really here about a question of taxation as much as we are a question of the particular bill.

Senator DOUGLAS. I know the figures are always brought out in a State where the large proportion of the taxes are paid, to dampen the ardor of Federal aid, and I want to defend the interests of my State naturally, but I would say that they are in part delusive, because while these income taxes are paid from the industrial States they are paid on income which is not necessarily derived from those States.

This is particularly true in the case of New York where people do get a large income. People gravitate generally to New York in order

that they may consort with those of equal incomes and have the pleasure of their company, and so that their children may be able to sound broad A's as in "father."

Now, the result of that is that you build up not a grain belt but a money belt, so to speak, running roughly from the fox-hunting country of Virginia up to Boston, a thin, narrow line along the Atlantic seaboard where the big money resides.

Now, the incomes are not necessarily earned there, but it is received there and paid from there and so, in behalf of the other sections of the country, I want to say that if you had this comparison on the basis, not of where taxes were paid, but where income was earned, it would be a different picture. That is the first and main comment that I want to make.

Senator IVES. May I

Senator DOUGLAS. I want to finish this.

The second comment I have to make is that while I have very serious quarrels with some of the ways of computing per capital income, notably because Texas gets a very low per capita income despite the great wealth of the oil magnates of Houston, I think there is a good deal of income in Texas which is not taxed, and hence does not enter into the statement of income.

I have not had the pleasure of staying at the Shamrock Hotel, but I have read accounts of the Shamrock Hotel, and I cannot believe that Texas is as poverty-stricken as the figures on average per capita income would indicate.

So I would like sometime to see this formula revised a bit and see that Texas bear its fair share of the load in proportion to its great wealth, or rather the great wealth of wealthy people.

Secretary HOBBY. Mr. Chairman, do you think I ought to be given a chance to defend my State?

Senator DOUGLAS. I would like to see the formula revised, because I think that certain sections of the country are unduly charged, not because of any malice, but because of defects in the taxing structure of the country.

In the third place I would say this: That we of the States with higher per capita income are willing to bear our share of the national burden because we recognize that with the mobility of population that the children who are educated in the States with low per capita income do not necessarily stay there, but migrate in large proportion, to the industrial centers, and if their education has been poor source we inherit the problem later.

I want to make it clear that so far as I am concerned here in Illinois, at least as long as I serve, we are perfectly willing to bear our share of the national burden, but we do wish that Texas would get in line, and that some of the people who are avoiding taxes down there through the 272 percent depletion allowance on oil really reform and pay their share.

Senator IVES. Mr. Chairman.

Chairman HILL. The Senator from New York.

Senator IVES. I would like to comment on Senator Douglas' point 1 very briefly; our income receivers in New York are more and more leaving New York State.

Senator DOUGLAS. Where are they going?

Senator IVES. They are going where the taxes aren't so high.

Senator DOUGLAS. The Bahamas?

Senator IVES. I think you will find them scattered out around the poor States, so-called.

Chairman HILL. Doctor, since there seems to be disagreement between these two distinguished Senators representing these large States, maybe you and I will agree that too often the children are where the dollars are not; is that true?

Dr. BROWNELL. That is in part true. The very interesting figures that are available on migration show that there is a very considerable movement of the families from the States of lower income to the States of higher income, and actually that the increase in the birth rates in the higher income States is increasing more rapidly than the lower income States, so that as one of the Senators pointed out earlier, the difference between our States in the per capita wealth is much closer together than it was 15 and 20 years ago.

The equalizing process is really, as a sociological situation, a very interesting phenomenon.

Chairman HILL. That gap, although it has been closed, as you well say, considerably, it is a long, long way from being closed.

Dr. BROWNELL. It is not equal, and within each State, of course, that is one of the big problems, that you have some districts that have large per capita income, and some that have much smaller per capita income.

Chairman HILL. Some with the larger per capita income have the fewer number of children; isn't that true?

Dr. BROWNELL. That is true, but the relationship is not 1 to 1, by any means.

Chairman HILL. Let me ask you this, Doctor. Now, we all are in accord that we have this very great emergency facing us. Given the fact that you have got to set up these State authorities in all the different States and that you had these questions of constitutionality raised; and may well expect they will be raised again I don't see how you could expect to get very many schools under title II in the immediate future.

Secretary HOBBY. Mr. Chairman, would it be helpful to the committe if you were to hear Mr. Judd now on the constitutionality of the question? I know that each of the Senators has questions on it, and we keep coming back to it.

Chairman HILL. Yes.

Senator DOUGLAS. Mr. Chairman, before that is done, I would like to ask Madam Secretary or Commissioner Brownell this question. To what degree in the growing of plans is counsel taken with the State authorities and to what degree are you taking counsel with experts on bond issues?

Dr. BROWNELL. Well, I would say we have taken counsel with both. We happen to have in the Office of Education more people that we think are well versed in the field of education than we have in the field of bonding, and therefore, we called on the bonding people more extensively than we did on the group from the field of education. Senator DOUGLAS. Have you called on the NEA?

Dr. BROWNELL. Have we called on the NEA in asking their advice on the matter? Senator DOUGLAS. Yes.

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Dr. BROWNELL. I would say this: That we have discussed the matter with certain NEA officials and let them know and discussed the matter with them.

We haven't followed all of the suggestions of the NEA any more than we would expect to follow the suggestions of any other particular group, but we have asked for their suggestions; yes, sir.

Senator DOUGLAS. The same question frequently comes up, what is a bipartisan foreign policy? Frequently the Department of State thinks it has a bipartisan foreign policy if it announces to the members of the opposition party what the policy is, after it has been decided, and acquaints them with the decision prior to the public hearings or public announcements.

Do you think your consultation with the NEA is of that type?

Dr. BROWNELL. I should say for the record I happen to be a life member of the NEA myself, of which I am very proud, and have been for a good many years, and have many friends in the NEA.

Senator DOUGLAS. This is not a reply to my question, Doctor. Did you consult with the NEA in the preparation of these plans, or did you tell them after the plans had been worked out?

Dr. BROWNELL. Well, the question of when the plans have all been worked out is a question-I would say that we asked the NEA people to go over our plans in the formative stage before they were completed, and asked their advice.

Chairman HILL. When did you do that, Doctor, if I may ask? Dr. BROWNELL. Several weeks ago.

Senator DOUGLAS. Do I understand, then, that when you consulted the NEA, that your plans were not definite and you consulted with them on the final formulation of the plan?

Dr. BROWNELL. Well, I would say this, that we did not ask the NEA to send experts to come over and assist us in the development of this program, no. We didn't ask any educational groups to do that. But that does not mean that we didn't know what the NEA position was.

Senator DOUGLAS. How many meetings with the NEA did you have?

Dr. BROWNELL. How many meetings with the NEA?
Senator DOUGLAS. Yes, with official representatives?

Dr. BROWNELL. With official representatives of the NEA? In reference to this, I should say that I can think of only one real meeting, but we made changes after that, and in part I would say as a result of some of these suggestions made, but I again want to say this: On the question of meeting with the NEA, we had also representatives from other groups who were NEA people.

Senator DOUGLAS. Did you consult with the American Federation of Teachers?

Dr. BROWNELL. No; we didn't bring in official groups from organized educational groups.

Senator DOUGLAS. Did you consult with the Association of School Administrators?

Dr. BROWNELL. I consulted informally on parts of this with a good number of administrators.

Senator DOUGLAS. You see, we have a large number of voluntary bodies in this country, as you well know, and while they do not occupy any official status

Dr. BROWNELL. That's right.

Senator DOUGLAS. But in the determination of public policy they not only represent actual interests, but quite commonly can give good advice.

Dr. BROWNELL. And I would say this: That the members of the Office of Education staff are members of those voluntary bodies, and as such we are in close touch with their thinking.

For instance, I consult very frequently and formally with chief State school officers and with school superintendents outside the Office of Education, not in an official capacity, but generally to sound out their views on these questions and others. And sometimes we agree, and sometimes we don't agree.

Senator DOUGLAS. I the main, then, this plan has been developed by the Office of Education in consultation, not with the NEA, but

Dr. BROWNELL. Oh, yes; I wouldn't want to say that this has the NEA endorsement, or any other group. We didn't ask for their endorsement on it.

Chairman HILL. I don't think it is so much a question of endorsement, Doctor. The fact is you really didn't bring them right in and say, "Now, we are trying to work this thing out, sit down with us and see if you can help us work it out."

Dr. BROWNELL. No, sir.

Chairman HILL. You didn't do that?

Dr. BROWNELL. No, sir.

Chairman HILL. What you did after you had it pretty well worked out, was maybe to tell some of them about it, is that about right? Dr. BROWNELL. And asked their criticism and judgment of it. Chairman HILL. But they were not really in on the formulation of it at all?

Dr. BROWNELL. We did not ask the NEA to come in and help us formulate this program. The NEA has pretty well formulated its program in the field of educational legislation for school construction, to which it has committeed itself officially for some time.

Chairman HILL. You did ask the representatives of other organizations of educational officials or experts or teachers to come in?

Dr. BROWNELL. Yes, I asked the representatives of the chief State school offices and the American

Chairman HILL. I mean to come in, other than you casually asking the NEA in. You didn't accord them any more consideration than you did NEA, did you?

Dr. BROWNELL. No, no; we didn't ask official bodies as such to come in and formulate this program.

Senator DOUGLAS. What outside groups did you consult in the formation of the program?

Dr. BROWNELL. Well, in an unofficial way it really is very difficult for me to say what organizations, because I have discussed parts of this program with, as I say, school superintendents and other educators, some of whom are in colleges and universities, and I don't know what their affiliations are. They may be representing organizations in the field of education.

Senator DOUGLAS. Where did you get your advice on bond issues? Dr. BROWNELL. On bond issues? Well, I would say we got our advice on bond issues from several sources, partly from my own ex

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