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Mr. FORAND. Mr. Herlong.

Mr. HERLONG. Dr. Braun, you said that you thought this was a sound program but you said that soundness did not necessarily mean that it had to be paid for in advance.

Dr. BRAUN. That is correct, just as, for example, the Government issues many bonds to pay for additional services for which they do not have the money right at the time.

Mr. HERLONG. How do you expect the social security trust fund to get the money to pay for these additional benefits if they do not have the cash on hand ?

What I am trying to get at is, do you expect the Federal Government to make a general appropriation to the social security trust fund to make up for the difference that this is going to cost above what we have in cash on hand ?

Dr. Braun. It is my opinion that as presently constituted the plan would cover its expenses.

Mr. HERLONG. It would cover its expenses?
Dr. BRAUN. That is right.

Mr. HERLONG. Then if it would cover its expenses there would not be any deficit.

Dr. BRAUN. That is correct.

Mr. HERLONG. And you said a moment ago that the fund would not have to have the cash in hand.

Dr. Braun. There may be a temporary deficit.
Mr. HERLONG. Who pays the temporary deficit ?

Dr. Braun. There has been a deficit in the social security system for a number of years which came out of the social security fund and in the regular course of events the rate of taxation was changed so that in the long run there will be an increase in the amount of the social security trust fund so that over a long period of time the system is very sound and I have no reason to believe that the system, as applied to medical care of the retired aged, would be in any wise different.

Mr. HERLONG. You would be in favor, then, of reducing the social security trust fund in order to take care of the deficit these additional benefits would cause?

Dr. BRAUN. No, sir; I made no such suggestion. I simply felt that no such deficit would arise and that, if it did, it could be met within the fund in any case. It did not have to use the general social security fund.

I simply drew the parallel of what happened with the general social security trust fund which, for a couple of years, had a deficit and yet over a long period of time is financially very sound.

Mr. HERLONG. Now the point has been made here on a number of occasions that this is going to cost more money than is going to be paid into the fund. The fund has been made, too, that voluntary health insurance programs have been costing more money, that rates have been raised from time to time in these voluntary health insurance programs; that they cannot operate even a nonprofit program on the basis of the rates that have been charged. Is there any reason for any of us to believe that the Federal Government can operate such a program cheaper than a nonprofit voluntary company can do it, like Blue Cross, for example?

Dr. BRAUN. I would like to point out that in New York City within the past year there have been two raises in Blue Cross rates, one of about 22.3 percent and the other of about 25 percent.

Mr. HERLONG. That is a nonprofit organization, is it not?

Dr. BRAUN. This is a nonprofit organization, so that it appears that the question of finance and the fact that medical care is costing a lot and may cost more actually has very little to do with the system of distribution of medical care. The expenses could increase under a completely private system of distribution of medical care and people could be even more financially embarrassed by the medical costs than they are now and that would have nothing to do with the Government playing any part whatsoever in the costs of medical care.

I think the two issues should be kept separate, the fact that medical care and good medical care costs a lot of money and is probably going to cost more money than it is costing now, and whether or not this should be dealt with under a private practice voluntary insurance combination or a Government insurance universal coverage with the same method of practice that we have now. This does not have to do with the amount of money that medicine is going to cost except for the fact that it may save, under the Government insurance plan, a good deal on the administrative costs.

Mr. HERLONG. You think the Government could administer a program cheaper than a nonprofit corporation can administer a program?

Dr. BRAUN. Yes, I think this is true and has been shown to be true time after time in the social security system and in the comparison of the administrative costs of various insurance companies, the Government generally comes out very favorably.

Mr. HERLONG. It is my opinion, based on what I have heard here, that the thing that would actually occur is that we would find out if we get into a program like the one proposed that it would cost so very much more than any one anticipated, that the trust fund would be greatly reduced and that there would be a tremendous pressure on Congress to appropriate money from the general revenue to the social security trust fund so that we would, in effect, destroy our whole social security system and bring about a dole.

Dr. BRAUN. Sir, I would like to submit that if this were true, then I think that it would be simply because the costs of medical care are not being met at this time and that there is an unsatisfied demand for medical care which would then be satisfied. That might conceivably only prove how much of a need there is for this system.

However, I think it is very unlikely that some of the higher estimates of the costs of this system would turn out to be true and I would like to point out that the various estimates have varied more than 100 percent.

Mr. Mason. Would the gentleman from Florida yield there?
Mr. HERLONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. Mason. Mr. Cruikshank testified that this would not pay for itself and that, of course, his solution would be to raise the $4,800 up to $6,000.

Dr. Braun here, if I understand his testimony, has already said that this would be sound but it would probably need increased rates later on to make up for the deficit created now.

Is that not practically what you stated ?

Dr. BRAUN. I would like to say on that that, as I understood Mr. Cruikshank, he said that in effect for the purposes of the argument giving the worst estimate of what this would cost, a system could be figured out whereby the system would remain sound, but I do not believe that Mr. Cruikshank thinks that the costs will run as high as Mr. Flemming maintained that they would.

Mr. Mason. That is all.
Mr. HERLONG. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. FORAND. Are there any further questions?
Mr. ALGER. Mr. Chairman, I have one other thing to ask, if I may.
Mr. FORAND. Mr. Alger.

Mr. ALGER. Something stuck in my memory, Dr. Braun, and I am going to choose my words very carefully and I want you to listen carefully because I do not want to cast any unfair aspersions on you.

I have read something and I have checked with the Committee on Un-American Activities to check my recollection. I do not say this has anything to do with the testimony that you submit here as to its logic, as to your position, but we must be very careful where we get our information and I am interested in this. Regardless of how my colleagues may feel, I am expressing only myself. I have checked with our House Committee on Un-American Activities and have been cold by them that Bella Dodd, a former Communist, testifying giving us information made the statement that, the Physicians Forum was established primarily by the Communist Party, that every one in it is not a Communist and many of them do not know anything about this connection possibly but the initiative came from the Communists.

I am only telling you what we have in our files here and making up nothing

I am told further that the Physicians Forum has contributed articles to the Communist Daily Peoples World, and this comes from our own Committee on Un-American Activities files and reference section. Further, I have been told, and I do not know that this is so, that the Physicians Forum is listed as a subversive organization by the California Legislative Committee on Un-American Activities.

Do you know if this is so?

Dr. Braun. I can answer the others. I know nothing about the California statement.

Mr. ALGER. Could you answer the others?
Dr. BRAUN. Yes, I can.

Mr. ALGER. I want this record very clear, Doctor, that I am not casting any aspersions against you.

Dr. BRAUN. The statement that the forum was formed by the Communist Party is a flat and downright lie.

The next statement was what?

Mr. ALGER. This was Bella Dodd's statement that it was at the initiative of the Communists, and she was a former Communist. It is only her word.

Dr. BRAUN. This is a flat and downright lie.

Mr. ALGER. The Physicians Forum has contributed articles to the Communist Daily Peoples World.

Dr. Braun. I believe I can explain that. The Physicians Forum submitted no such articles. The Physicians Forum submitted a column to Federated Press which is a general news-distributing agency,

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and this was published there and there has been no other connection of any sort whatsoever with any publications.

Mr. ALGER. All right. Now, Doctor, you understand that I did not make up any of this. This comes from our own congressional Committee on Un-American Activities. This is not something to impugn your statement but I am interested in the origin of your Physicians Forum.

If you would like, I would like to ask the chairman to leave the record open so that you can correct it on this matter of the California

Dr. BRAUN. I think I have corrected it.

Mr. ALGER. You said you did not know. I beg your pardon. I was going to ask that the record be left open so that you can set the record straight on that.

Dr. Braun. Are there any other charges that I may answer?
Mr. ALGER. That is all I have at the moment.

THE PHYSICIANS FORUM, INC.,

New York, N.Y., July 20, 1959. Representative WILBUR D. MILLS, Chairman, House Ways and Means Committee, House Office Building, Washington, D.C.

DEAR REPRESENTATIVE MILL: I am enclosing for submission into the record, as requested by Representative Bruce Alger, a statement replying to the allegations against the Physicians Forum he repeated from the House Un-American Activities Committee at the hearings on H.R. 4700 of the House Ways and Means Committee on Tuesday, July 14, 1959.

We are most pleased to have had the opportunity to discuss with the committee our views on medical care for the aged. If at any time in the future we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to call upon us. Sincerely yours,

EDMUND M. BRAUN, M.D. In response to Congressman Alger's request for information concerning certain allegations made against the Physicians Forum obtained from the records of the House Un-American Activities Committee, the following is submitted for the record :

1. The charge of Bella Dodd that the Physicians Forum was formed by the Communist Party is a complete lie. In 1939, the New York County Medical Society attempted to impose a rule stating that anyone holding office in the society could not issue any public statement that did not agree with official policy. A considerable number of physicians, including some prominent leaders of the profession banded together to oppose this policy. They were able to enlist such wide support that this gag rule was defeated. This group of physicians felt that discussion of controversial subjects should be encouraged rather than suppressed. They therefore set up regular discussions of controversial issues in medicine, in which all sides were presented. Hence, the name “Physicians Forum." In 1941, this group was incorporated and in 1943, it was enlarged to become a national membership organization.

2. Medical information appearing in the Peoples World was a health column prepared by the Physicians Forum and syndicated through the Federated Press (an independent news service). The Physicians Forum had nothing directly to do with the subscribers to the Federated Press nor use of the health column by the Peoples World. The Physicians Forum, an organization dedicated to the improvement and extension of medical care and freedom of thought and expression in medicine, is politically nonpartisan.

3. The Physicians Forum had never before heard that it was cited as a subversive organization by the California State Committee on Un-American ACtivities. The California committee never held hearings on the Physicians Forum por questioned Forum officers. The list of organizations cited as subversive by State and Territorial committees, part III of "The Guide to Subversive Organi

zations and Publications," issued by the House Un-American Activities Committee (1957 edition) does not include the Physicians Forum.

From the foregoing, it is apparent that the allegations raised by Mr. Alger are groundless. We believe that it is unfair to publicize such destructive misinformation. Above all, we believe that this attack on the Physicians Forum has nothing whatsoever to do with the merits of the Forand bill, H.R. 4700. JULY 20, 1959.

Mr. FORAND. I am sorry that this question of communism has been injected in here. This is the second time in 2 days. We had a doctor here yesterday who labeled my bill as communistic.

I sincerely hope that if there are any questions of communism to be involved here that it be made known to the committee so that we can be on our toes.

Insofar as I am concerned, I resent the introduction of communistic matters into the discussion of this bill.

Thank you very much for your appearance, Dr. Braun.
The next witness is Dr. Hunter.

Come forward, sir, and for the purpose of the record, identify yourself by name, address, and the capacity in which you appear.

STATEMENT OF DR. G. B. HUNTER, JR., MEMBER, BOARD OF GOV

ERNORS OF THE COLLEGE OF AMERICAN PATHOLOGISTS, AND CHAIRMAN OF THE LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE

Dr. HUNTER. I am Dr. Oscar B. Hunter, Jr., of Chevy Chase, Md., a member of the board of governors of the College of American Pathologists, and chairman of the legislative committee.

Mr. FORAND. Doctor, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Dr. HUNTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, the College of American Pathologists is the national organization of pathologists composed of more than 2,500 members who are the directors of laboratories in all qualified hospitals and the directors of departments in the medical schools of this country.

We appear here today because of our particular knowledge of one phase of medical care; namely, the diagnostic and treatment control carried out by laboratory procedures. Under our supervision a multitude of pathologic tests are carried out daily by registered medical technologists in the country's hospitals. This phase of medical care comprises 20 percent of the cost of medical care. Improperly managed, it could amount to 50 percent of the cost of medical care.

We appear today because of our concern on H.R. 4700. This bill calls for medical care for social security beneficiaries in hospitals and nursing homes, including necessary surgery. We share with the proponents of this bill a great concern for the medical care of the aged and have evidenced this concern by working actively to improve the voluntary insurance program in every area of the country, including the Blue Shield and private insurance company plans,

It is our belief that this bill proposes a plan which is ill conceived and will not only not provide the care desired but will worsen the care for not only the aged but every other individual now enjoying the high standard of medical care now available. Mr. Chairman, our reasons for these statements are these:

1. The care of the aged is primarily medical, not surgical. Care of degenerative diseases requires pathologic laboratory procedures pri

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