Dr. BRAUN. I would like to say on that that, as I understood Mr. Cruikshank, he said that in effect for the purposes of the argument giving the worst estimate of what this would cost, a system could be figured out whereby the system would remain sound, but I do not believe that Mr. Cruikshank thinks that the costs will run as high as Mr. Flemming maintained that they would.

Mr. MASON. That is all.

Mr. HERLONG. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FORAND. Are there any further questions?

Mr. ALGER. Mr. Chairman, I have one other thing to ask, if I may. Mr. FORAND. Mr. Alger.

Mr. ALGER. Something stuck in my memory, Dr. Braun, and I am going to choose my words very carefully and I want you to listen carefully because I do not want to cast any unfair aspersions on you.

I have read something and I have checked with the Committee on Un-American Activities to check my recollection. I do not say this has anything to do with the testimony that you submit here as to its logic, as to your position, but we must be very careful where we get our information and I am interested in this. Regardless of how my colleagues may feel, I am expressing only myself. I have checked with our House Committee on Un-American Activities and have been told by them that Bella Dodd, a former Communist, testifying giving us information made the statement that

the Physicians Forum was established primarily by the Communist Party, that every one in it is not a Communist and many of them do not know anything about this connection possibly but the initiative came from the Communists.

I am only telling you what we have in our files here and making up nothing.

I am told further that the Physicians Forum has contributed articles to the Communist Daily Peoples World, and this comes from our own Committee on Un-American Activities files and reference section. Further, I have been told, and I do not know that this is so, that the Physicians Forum is listed as a subversive organization by the California Legislative Committee on Un-American Activities.

Do you know if this is so?

Dr. BRAUN. I can answer the others. I know nothing about the California statement.

Mr. ALGER. Could you answer the others?

Dr. BRAUN. Yes, I can.

Mr. ALGER. I want this record very clear, Doctor, that I am not casting any aspersions against you.

Dr. BRAUN. The statement that the forum was formed by the Communist Party is a flat and downright lie.

The next statement was what?

Mr. ALGER. This was Bella Dodd's statement that it was at the initiative of the Communists, and she was a former Communist. It is only her word.

Dr. BRAUN. This is a flat and downright lie.

Mr. ALGER. The Physicians Forum has contributed articles to the Communist Daily Peoples World.

Dr. BRAUN. I believe I can explain that. The Physicians Forum submitted no such articles. The Physicians Forum submitted a column to Federated Press which is a general news-distributing agency,

and this was published there and there has been no other connection of any sort whatsoever with any publications.

Mr. ALGER. All right. Now, Doctor, you understand that I did not make up any of this. This comes from our own congressional Committee on Un-American Activities. This is not something to impugn your statement but I am interested in the origin of your Physicians Forum.

If you would like, I would like to ask the chairman to leave the record open so that you can correct it on this matter of the Cali

fornia

Dr. BRAUN. I think I have corrected it.

Mr. ALGER. You said you did not know. I beg your pardon. I was going to ask that the record be left open so that you can set the record straight on that.

Dr. BRAUN. Are there any other charges that I may answer?
Mr. ALGER. That is all I have at the moment.

Representative WILBUR D. MILLS,

THE PHYSICIANS FORUM, INC.,
New York, N.Y., July 20, 1959.

Chairman, House Ways and Means Committee,
House Office Building, Washington, D.C.

DEAR REPRESENTATIVE MILL: I am enclosing for submission into the record, as requested by Representative Bruce Alger, a statement replying to the allegations against the Physicians Forum he repeated from the House Un-American Activities Committee at the hearings on H.R. 4700 of the House Ways and Means Committee on Tuesday, July 14, 1959.

We are most pleased to have had the opportunity to discuss with the committee our views on medical care for the aged. If at any time in the future we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to call upon us.

Sincerely yours,

EDMUND M. BRAUN, M.D.

In response to Congressman Alger's request for information concerning certain allegations made against the Physicians Forum obtained from the records of the House Un-American Activities Committee, the following is submitted for the record:

1. The charge of Bella Dodd that the Physicians Forum was formed by the Communist Party is a complete lie. In 1939, the New York County Medical Society attempted to impose a rule stating that anyone holding office in the society could not issue any public statement that did not agree with official policy. A considerable number of physicians, including some prominent leaders of the profession banded together to oppose this policy. They were able to enlist such wide support that this gag rule was defeated. This group of physicians felt that discussion of controversial subjects should be encouraged rather than suppressed. They therefore set up regular discussions of controversial issues in medicine, in which all sides were presented. Hence, the name "Physicians Forum." In 1941, this group was incorporated and in 1943, it was enlarged to become a national membership organization.

2. Medical information appearing in the Peoples World was a health column prepared by the Physicians Forum and syndicated through the Federated Press (an independent news service). The Physicians Forum had nothing directly to do with the subscribers to the Federated Press nor use of the health column by the Peoples World. The Physicians Forum, an organization dedicated to the improvement and extension of medical care and freedom of thought and expression in medicine, is politically nonpartisan.

3. The Physicians Forum had never before heard that it was cited as a subversive organization by the California State Committee on Un-American Activities. The California committee never held hearings on the Physicians Forum nor questioned Forum officers. The list of organizations cited as subversive by State and Territorial committees, part III of "The Guide to Subversive Organi

zations and Publications," issued by the House Un-American Activities Committee (1957 edition) does not include the Physicians Forum.

From the foregoing, it is apparent that the allegations raised by Mr. Alger are groundless. We believe that it is unfair to publicize such destructive misinformation. Above all, we believe that this attack on the Physicians Forum has nothing whatsoever to do with the merits of the Forand bill, H.R. 4700. JULY 20, 1959.

Mr. FORAND. I am sorry that this question of communism has been injected in here. This is the second time in 2 days. We had a doctor here yesterday who labeled my bill as communistic.

I sincerely hope that if there are any questions of communism to be involved here that it be made known to the committee so that we can be on our toes.

Insofar as I am concerned, I resent the introduction of communistic matters into the discussion of this bill.

Thank you very much for your appearance, Dr. Braun.

The next witness is Dr. Hunter.

Come forward, sir, and for the purpose of the record, identify yourself by name, address, and the capacity in which you appear.

STATEMENT OF DR. G. B. HUNTER, JR., MEMBER, BOARD OF GOVERNORS OF THE COLLEGE OF AMERICAN PATHOLOGISTS, AND CHAIRMAN OF THE LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE

Dr. HUNTER. I am Dr. Oscar B. Hunter, Jr., of Chevy Chase, Md., a member of the board of governors of the College of American Pathologists, and chairman of the legislative committee.

Mr. FORAND. Doctor, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

Dr. HUNTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, the College of American Pathologists is the national organization of pathologists composed of more than 2,500 members who are the directors of laboratories in all qualified hospitals and the directors of departments in the medical schools of this country. We appear here today because of our particular knowledge of one phase of medical care; namely, the diagnostic and treatment control carried out by laboratory procedures. Under our supervision a multitude of pathologic tests are carried out daily by registered medical technologists in the country's hospitals. This phase of medical care comprises 20 percent of the cost of medical care. Improperly managed, it could amount to 50 percent of the cost of medical care.

We appear today because of our concern on H.R. 4700. This bill calls for medical care for social security beneficiaries in hospitals and nursing homes, including necessary surgery. We share with the proponents of this bill a great concern for the medical care of the aged and have evidenced this concern by working actively to improve the voluntary insurance program in every area of the country, including the Blue Shield and private insurance company plans.

It is our belief that this bill proposes a plan which is ill conceived and will not only not provide the care desired but will worsen the care for not only the aged but every other individual now enjoying the high standard of medical care now available. Mr. Chairman, our reasons for these statements are these:

1. The care of the aged is primarily medical, not surgical. Care of degenerative diseases requires pathologic laboratory procedures pri

marily. The demand in this area could swamp the existing pathologic facilities with unnecessary requests.

2. The bill would lead to Federal control but control must be local and by physicians in the area, if medical care is to be the best available.

3. Experience with all socialized schemes of medical care, noteworthily the English, which I know firsthand, has always cost far in excess of estimates. In this particular area the costs have increased seven times during the period of its operations.

4. The bill would destroy the excellent voluntary programs fostered by Blue Cross, Blue Shield, and the private insurance companies which are rapidly mobilizing effective means for care of the aged. These plans are doing this task in an orderly, well-integrated manner. Necessary actuarial experience is being gained which in a relatively short period of time will enable everyone to obtain the care they need at a reasonable price under the free enterprise system which has up to this time given us the excellent medical care we enjoy.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out two examples of the effect of governmental influence on medical care which tend to highlight the statement we have made. The first is the problems associated with Medicare. Congress wrote a free ticket at the initiation of the act of medicine but when the costs were found to be considerably higher than initially estimated, Congress cut back the budget. This disrupted the excellent medical planning and caused much confusion between patients and their private physicians. This we do not want to see now in this particular area.

The second is an example in our own field of pathology. The College of American Pathologists has distributed literature throughout this country on the early diagnosis of cancer of the uterus by the examination of cells from the vagina. This has been proven to diagnose cancer of the uterus at an early treatable period. Pathologists in this country have been anxious to utilize these tests. However, when we attempted to distribute this information to pathologists in Canada, where socialized medicine exists, we were told by the pathologists there that they did not want these pamphlets distributed because it would make too much work for them. We have had similar experience in South American countries. And in that area the interest is directly related to whether or not the physicians are under a free system. This proposed legislation can only stifle the initiative of physicians in a similar fashion.

In summary, we are opposed to H.R. 4700 because:

1. It does not provide the care needed by the aged.

2. It is a socializing concept of medical care.

3. It would be excessively expensive.

4. It is disruptive of good medical plans which are now being developed to care for the aged.

5. It provides for Federal control where local medical control is superior.

Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the opportunity of appearing before this committee to make this presentation. It will be happy to answer any questions.

Mr. FORAND. Doctor, I believe that pathologists such as you represent are in many cases employed by hospitals which are receiving Federal money through such programs as maternal and child welfare, public assistance, veterans programs, and the Defense Department programs, is that correct?

Dr. HUNTER. Well, pathologists are in most instances, Mr. Chairman, under contracts in hospitals. They are not employees of the hospitals.

Mr. FORAND. That does not say that the money that is used to pay your fees does not come from the Federal Government.

Dr. HUNTER. Some fees are paid from Federal sources.

Mr. FORAND. I have already indicated that I would like the cooperation of all groups interested in this problem of the aged. I would like your advice on proposals for the remuneration of pathologists and other specialists in the manner that would be recommended as equitable. Would your organization give to me or to the committee assistance in regard to making provisions on remunerations that you would like to have included in such a bill?

Dr. HUNTER. Well, sir, number one, we will be happy to cooperate in any way we can. However, as I want it clearly understood, we are definitely opposed to the bill and, although we are happy to cooperate in any way we can to help improve the care of the patient, we are not in favor of this bill as it was written.

Mr. FORAND. You are opposed to the bill. What do you have as an alternative program?

Dr. HUNTER. Well, our alternative program is, I think, rather clear cut in the statement made. What we believe is that the present system, the voluntary insurance system which now exists is a good system. This is a system which is now working and working well in the areas in which it has gone.

In the aged, we have problems which are not yet answered because we have not had enough experience. All we need is sufficient time for these things to be developed, but you cannot develop them overnight and these things, I think, will answer the problem in a relatively reasonable period of time.

Mr. FORAND. Again that question of time. We have been studying this question for years and years and years. We get no action but we get a lot of talk and a lot of requests for time.

Dr. HUNTER. Mr. Chairman, I beg your pardon for interrupting. Mr. FORAND. Go ahead.

Dr. HUNTER. Would you not agree that the experience that we have had shows an increase and improvement in the care of the people of our country by the voluntary program?

Mr. FORAND. For about 2 years now there has been some real action and it was about 2 years ago that I introduced my bill that set off the keg of dynamite under the seat of these people.

Dr. HUNTER. My congratulations to you.

Mr. FORAND. I think I will have to get another keg of dynamite to blow this thing wide enough so that we might get a solution.

Dr. HUNTER. When we see that something like 120 million people in this country are covered by insurance and it is expanding at a rapid growth rate, we have every indication that we are going to be able to do the job in a very short period of time.