Mr. HILL. My own State of Indiana makes absolutely no grants for classroom construction. Our legislature just adjourned last Monday. Not a single bill was introduced in the legislature to provide grants for classroom construction.

There is not an organization in the State seriously interested in getting the State to make these grants.

I tried personally in 1957 to get State grants for school construction in communities where I felt there was a need. There was 1 senator out of 150 men who was actually interested.

The school organizations were not. The Indiana State Chamber of Commerce supported a bill in 1957 for classroom construction aid, but it was not felt that it was needed, that the local units were doing a good job.

This was essentially the position of all the school organizations, the State agencies, and just about everyone in the State.

Now, in 1959 there is just no bill introduced, there is no discussion at all. I think the reason for that is this: Monday or Tuesday I called the State department of public construction in Indianapolis and asked them how many schools we had on double shift. They said, "Well, we don't think we have any. There might be one or two in Lake County, but we can't name a single one.”

I said, "Don't they have to get permission to operate double shifts?" They said yes, but they still didn't know of a single school district in that State that was operating double shift.

This does not mean that there are not some classroom shortages in the States. In the other States there are, but by and large where the school districts are interested in constructing the buildings they can, and where they can't do it with their own resources, State resources are adequate if the people of the various communities and States want outside help.

It is not necessary to get it from the Federal Government.

The reason I mentioned Indianapolis is not only because I am from Indiana, but because Indiana is a fairly average State in population, enrollment, rate of growth, per capita income, teachers' salaries, and expenditures per pupil.

We are just about average in all those categories. Yet we feel that the rate of progress in school construction in that State in recent years has been truly remarkable, but it seems to me that the case for Federal funds for teachers' salaries is even weaker than that for school buildings.

It is true that in recent years the school buildings issue has been the major one. Teachers, of course, are not entirely satisfied with their salaries, but this is true of practically all of us. The teachers seem most unhappy over the extracurricular duties which are imposed on them, more unhappy with this than with salaries.

Unfortunately, a substantial portion of their time is devoted to duties which are only remotely connected with improving the minds of youngsters. This general situation does not require Federal support, but could be corrected by school officials who feel that it is a threat to education.

Although many teachers leave the profession each year, only a few left to accept nonteaching positions. That is, the percentage is extremely small.

The national figures were not readily available at the time I prepared this statement, but I have looked them up since. The statistics show that about one percent of the total number of teachers left the teaching professsion each year to accept nonteaching employment. A lot of them leave for homemaking activities or to accept jobs in other school districts, or they enter the service or retire or simply decide they want to teach a year and then go back in again later.

This seems to be a characteristic of the teaching profession and that is one of its advantages.

Mr. BAILEY. I presume you have in Indiana certain educational institutions that are teacher training schools. What percentage of their graduates leave Indiana and go somewhere else because they get better pay?

Mr. HILL. We have 32 or 33 institutions that train teachers. Some of them train relatively few of course, but Indiana University and Purdue and Ball State Teachers College, Indiana State, Butler, and a number of others, train quite a number.

We are graduating well over 3,000 teachers a year, substantially more than is necessary to care for enrollment increases, more than twice as many.

There are certain areas in which we do not have enough, but the number of teachers leaving the State to accept higher salaries is less than the number of teachers coming in from other States.

A few years ago that seemed to be a problem, according to our Superintendent of public instruction. The situation with respect to employing teachers has improved remarkably in the last few years. The general shortage is not there any more. It is a shortage in specific areas, sciences, mathematics, foreign languages; and still generally in the elementary grades. But there is a major reason for the shortage in the elementary grades, not only in our State but elsewhere.

We pay elementary teachers the same as high school teachers. Yet it is relatively difficult, let us say it is very difficult, for a person who is really interested in getting a good education to do so and become an elementary teacher in our State. They devote 50 percent of their time to taking methods and theory and skills and history of education and about 50 percent of the time to taking basic subject matter in history, government, economics, philosophy, mathematics, and sciences.

This, according to many of the deans in our State, deans in schools, is deterring more and more people from becoming elementary teachers. They become high school teachers because they don't have to take so many of the methods courses 18 to become a high school teacher and about 60 to become an elementary schoolteacher.

So what happens? Year after year two-thirds of our teachers qualify to teach in high school; one-third in the elementary grades, although about three-fourths of the pupils are in the elementary grades.

The key to this, it seems to me, is that we should make the licensing requirements more realistic. It is very difficult in our State for someone out of State to come in and teach. One reason this has persisted is because many of our teachers fear the competition, that there are enough people qualified to teach that they fear for their jobs.

Let me give you an example. A man who has been teaching in the State of Ohio for 20 years, has a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, if he came into the State of Indiana to teach he would be unqualified. We would make him go back to college at least two or three summers to take some methods courses on how to teach, and we would make him take practice teaching although he had been teaching 20 years some place else. This is the sort of thing that has caused the number of teachers going into the elementary grades to lag considerably behind the number preparing for high school teaching.

In five years in Indiana we have trained enough high school teachers to replace every teacher in the State now teaching high school. Last year we had 10,000 high school teachers. In the last 5 years we have graduated more than ten thousand teachers prepared to teach in the high school.

But it takes four times as long to do that at the elementary level. Again, as I say, the opportunities for teaching are there and the salaries are the same. But the people, the young people, are not interested apparently in devoting too much of their time to courses which they do not feel are necessary or essential or even desirable to teaching at that level.

Mr. HIESTAND. May I ask a question.

Mr. BAILEY. You may.

Mr. HIESTAND. I would like to know from Dr. Hill why is it that we require in Indiana so many other courses for elementary teaching? What are the courses, psychological courses and so on?

Mr. HILL. It has developed over a number of years where we keep adding more and more to it. There have been few changes in the last 10 or 15 years. Our requirements have been about the same.

Mr. HIESTAND. Are your requirements like those of other States? Mr. HILL. For the elementary teacher they are higher than any other State except maybe one or two. This, again, depends on the way the information is reported.

Three years ago it was reported that Indiana had the highest requirements in the methods and skills and theory, about 60 semesterhours. There may be one or two States that are higher than that, but I do not know of any.

These courses are various courses in how to teach science, how to teach mathematics, how to teach social studies, how to teach history, and how to teach a host of other things, and arts and crafts, courses like these, which every single elementary teacher must take.

Now, some need them. Some do not. Some may need all of them; some may need a few.

The one teaching in the eighth grade may need less than the person in the first grade.

In addition to this, we have 55 different types of licenses in our State. Many other States have dozens. It is difficult to transfer from high school to elementary school or from elementary school to high school. It is difficult to move from State to State. It is difficult for the high school teacher who has been teaching another, even if they have had a substantial number of courses in it, and their local superintendents want them to do it.

They will have to go back and attend summer school or take a year off and meet the requirements which have been set up by the State.

Mr. HIESTAND. In your judgment is this part of the reason for our national problem?

Mr. HILL. Yes, I think it is. I think there are many good students, aggressive students and ambitious, who really want to get a college education and who want to teach.

It is very difficult to do both and enter the elementary grades.

There are other factors, too, of course; but this is one of the main differences between the elementary teacher and the high school teacher, this large difference in the amount of so-called professional education courses which they must take.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. HIESTAND. I am finished.

Mr. BRADEMAS. To get back to your statement, I notice at the top of page 6 you point out that the average teachers' salaries in Indiana are $4,618.

Mr. HILL. Yes. That was 1957-58.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Are you satisfied with that? Do you think that is enough for a school teacher?

Mr. HILL. No; I am not satisfied with it.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Then would you agree with the position of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce earlier this week in which the chamber said that although it was opposed to Federal aid to education, either for schools or for teachers' salaries, that it nonetheless was in favor of increased expenditures at the State and local levels on education? Would you go along with that position?

Mr. HILL. I have encouraged higher salaries and increased expenditures for years. I have supported them in the general assembly and with some degree of success.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Then let me ask you this question, because I was not able to get an answer to it from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce people earlier this week:

I tried to find out in view of the fact that the chamber was supporting, and you just indicated you support, increased expenditures on education, in how many States in the Union where there is to be found a State chamber of commerce does that State chamber of commerce fight for increased aid to education?

You

You represent, as I understand it, the Council of State Chambers of Commerce. So I wonder if you can give me that answer. have the State chambers which you represent on the back of this sheet of paper?

Mr. HILL. Yes; I have them here.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Do I understand that all of these State chambers would in their local State legislature, either the ones just adjourned or the ones still in session, do I understand that these Štate chambers listed back here are all fighting for increase State aid to education? Mr. HILL. No; I am in no position, of course, and neither is anyone else, to tell you what action is being taken by 28 or 30 State chambers at any one time.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Is it not possible for your organization to write to these various State chambers and simply say what is the position of your State chamber on education legislation?

Mr. HILL. That would be possible, yes, and would probably elicit the information which you are seeking.