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TABLE 1.-Percent the estimated allocation proposed under the Murray-Metcalf bill at $25 per child (5–17) in 1959-60 is of total public elementary and secondary school expenditures, 1958-59, by States1

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1 The projections of school-age population used in preparing this table were made by the U.S. Bureau of the Census at the request and expense of the research division of the National Education Association. The series of projections of school-age population used in this table were made under the assumption that the 1950-57 pattern and level of net interstate migration for the age group (5-17 years) will continue throughout the projection period. This series of projections was selected by the NEA research division from a group of 3 series based on different assumptions regarding future internal migration for the age group. • Estimated by NEA research division.

Source: Col. 2: NEA Research Division, "Advance Estimates of Public Elementary and Secondary Schools 1958-59." Washington, D.C.: the association, December 1958.

Mr. THOMPSON. Is not equalization inherent in a distribution formula because of the disparity in building costs according to geography?

Mr. LAMBERT. That is true. For instance, the cost of a site is a substantial part of the total cost of a building. Naturally, in a city you pay considerably more for your sites than you do in a rural area or in a State that is low in financial ability and low in wealth. Mr. THOMPSON. And notwithstanding the fact that the Davis-Bacon Act, as called for in this, is the only Federal control, and the wage rates in certain areas of the country are extremely higher or lower than they are in other areas, this also contributes to equalization, would you not say?

Mr. LAMBERT. Yes, and the way buildings are constructed in various parts of the country affect costs. Buildings are more expensive to build in the northern States than they are in the South because of the way they have to be constructed. Heating systems, insulation, and other factors have some effect.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mrs. Pagel a question.

First of all, I am sure all of the members of this committee are grateful you delayed your return to Cheyenne to testify this morn

ing.

I am appalled at the picture you give of the educational system in Wyoming, and shocked that it is not better than it seems to be on the basis of your testimony. But, if we should assume that there was a failure to teach our young people to read and write generally in every State in the Union, would it not still be necessary for us to define what the Federal role should be?

You have not touched on that at all. You have indicated that we should be providing some money both to help build classrooms and to help supplement teachers' salaries. Could you just tell us what your views are on that point? You have talked only of courageous legislation. I do not know just what courageous legislation means. Could you help me out on that?

Which area do you think is of the most immediate concern to us at the Federal level?

Mrs. PAGEL. Mr. Congressman, I don't think we can specify. Now I am a classroom teacher, and I have great faith in the classroom teachers across this Nation and in the administration of our schools and in all of the local school boards that run our schools. I think we will want to give them credit for looking at their own local situation within a State, and that this money, as the bill is written now, will let them put it where they need it the most.

I think one of the things that people fear is some Federal role that is going to interfere with local control. We get about 6 percent of our budget in Cheyenne from the Federal Government because we are a federally affected area.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. You did not answer my question.

Where do you think the most crying need is, for the Federal Government to help build classrooms, or to supplement teachers' salaries? You have mentioned those as two areas that need attention, and have said that we can do both.

The country is not only doing both to a degree, but, of course, can do both.

I think we will not get into any argument on that. But what would you like to see Federal legislation attack first? Or do you think that both problems are so serious that without Federal assistance our children are going to continue to be unable to read and write?

Mrs. PAGEL. I think both problems are equally serious. I would hate to build a schoolroom and put in an unqualified teacher, or put in no teacher at all. I can hire a teacher, I can hire a fine teacher, but I must have a place for her to teach.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. But are both those areas necessarily a Federal problem?

You have said-and I do not suppose you really meant it-that costs of a quality education have now outrun State resources. Well, I do not believe that. In my own State we certainly could be doing more. We have not taxed ourselves to the utmost. We have no sales tax, no income tax.

Certainly in every case the school districts have not outrun their resources. So it is not true as a flat statement applying to all the States.

But, generally speaking, you say there is a need to be met. Could we pinpoint where the crying need is?

I do not know what the relationship between Dr. Lambert and Mrs. Pagel is. Is Mrs. Pagel a representative of the N.E.A., too?

Mr. LAMBERT. She is testifying for the N.E.A. as a typical classroom teacher. I am serving as a technical adviser to her.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I did not realize that.

Mrs. PAGEL. He is smarter than I am.

Mr. LAMBERT. No, I am not either.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I think probably Dr. Lambert deserves to give direct testimony, too, because he does have so much information about the national picture.

Mr. LAMBERT. I think we should admit that many States and many local districts could do more. There are, however, situations in which it is going to be difficult from here on out for one or the other to do more. For instance, we know that property taxes have gone up tremendously in the last 10 years. The property tax is not a very flexible tax in terms of meeting the increased cost of governmental services. We must also realize that the needs for the development of water systems, for streets, for public buildings, for sewage disposal plants, and so on have fallen mainly on the property tax. There is tremendous competition now at the local level for the revenue from the property tax.

We feel there are many States in which property taxes cannot be stretched much further. They are already extremely high in many States. In other States they are not. But in States where property taxes are low, State taxes are high. On the other hand, there are States, such as yours, that do ot have a sales tax or do not have an income tax.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I am proud we have been able to get along without them.

Mr. THOMPSON. It is also outrageous, I must say.

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Each year both political parties piously pass a "no new tax program," and this is the springboard. Of course, that means no new anything. We should be ashamed of ourselves.

We have a balanced budget in New Jersey this year, too.

Mrs. PAGEL. May I say something? I don't want anybody to go away with the opinion that only the schools in Wyoming are in a deplorable condition.

I have based this only upon my personal experiences in order that I may show some of the things that are happening all over our country.

May I have just time to read a few of the facts that will help show what kind of a problem we face in Wyoming?

Mr. BAILEY. I will have to say to the witness that we have another witness here, and the time is getting pretty short. Could you put it in the record?

Mrs. PAGEL. Yes. It refers to the cost of education in our State and our ability to pay, our effort to pay.

(Information referred to follows:)

Costs of education per child reached $453 last year, the fourth highest in the Nation, while the citizens' effort to educate children based upon the per capita income of the adult population reached third place, and school cost per adult was second place in the Nation. Nevertheless, Wyoming still could reach only 29th place in the Nation in the salary paid teachers. Wyoming has only 57.9 percent of its population in the income-producing age groups, ranking 36th in the Nation, while it ranks 9th nationally with 23.6 percent of its population enrolled in public schools.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. In reference to Federal aid, it does worry me that you are referring to the fact that one out of five of the schools in our country are firetraps.

We have had it said in the newspapers, by one columnist at least, that some of the members of this committee are at least indirectly responsible for the fact that a great number of children were burned up in that disastrous Chicago fire. I do not mind saying that I resent that kind of an approach.

Of course, we have responsibilities, but there certainly is no assurance that Johnny, the backward child, or Frances, the advanced child, is going to get appropriate treatment if we start participating either in the financing of the construction of schools or in supplementing teachers' salaries, or that, automatically, by getting some Federal money, you are going to eliminate all the firetraps in this country. A lot of these things are local responsibility, and I am hoping you are not suggesting that you are failing to meet your local responsibilities because we are not putting up enough of the dollars that are needed to support the educational system.

These basically denote, it seems to me, a reflection on the educational system in Wyoming that you are bringing to our attention, and I assume that you are using poetic license to exaggerate the plight of your schools, to show that you need further aid.

I am not saying that that is a bad thing to do, but I do not think, generally speaking, our schools are quite as deplorable as you picture them.

Mr. BAILEY. May the Chair inquire of Dr. Lambert?

I assume there will be other witnesses to testify on behalf of the National Education Association; is that right?

Mr. LAMBERT. That is right.

Mr. BAILEY. Are we to understand that you are filing all this supporting data that will be offered, or will there be some offered by other witnesses representing NEA?

Mr. LAMBERT. There will be some offered by other witnesses. I think Dr. Heller appears before this committee tomorrow as an NEA witness.

Mr. BAILEY. Any supporting data that you have and care to file at this time, the committee has already accepted it for inclusion.

Mr. LAMBERT. It will be possible to include this total testimony? Mr. BAILEY. And if you will furnish that to Mr. McCord, the staff member here, we will see it gets in the record.

Thank you very much.

Now the committee will hear Dr. William M. Alexander, professor of education at George Peabody College, of Nashville, Tenn.

Dr. Alexander, will you come forward and identify yourself for the record?

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM M. ALEXANDER, PROFESSOR OF EDUCATION, GEORGE PEABODY COLLEGE FOR TEACHERS, NASHVILLE, TENN., AND PRESIDENT-ELECT, ASSOCIATION FOR SUPERVISION AND CURRICULUM DEVELOPMENT, NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D.C., ACCOMPANIED BY DR. SAM M. LAMBERT, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH, NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION

Mr. ALEXANDER. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am William Alexander, professor of education at George Peabody College for Teachers, and also president-elect of the Association for Supervision & Curriculum Development, a department of the National Education Association.

I, too, would appreciate the indulgence of the Chair and the committee for Dr. Sam Lambert to remain here and to answer questions that may have to do with technical aspects of the bill with which I am not familiar.

Mr. BAILEY. Your request will be granted.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Thank you, sir.

You have in your hands, I believe, written testimony which I have prepared. I expect to follow the general outline of that, but to talk to many of the points rather than reading the testimony.

I would like to introduce my remarks by saying that I appear here, I think, by virtue of having worked very actively in teaching and in curriculum and supervision for some 25 years. During these years I have had an opportunity to observe teaching in a good many parts of the country, to work with curriculum committees, professional groups, and to supervise many hundreds of teachers.

The remarks that I have to make are founded, therefore, on my own experience, and I think out of that experience some things are very clear, namely and specifically, that the quality of instruction in American schools is very uneven.

If I could draw for you, were there a blackboard here, a continuum on one end of which would be the very best education possible, and at

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