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Mr. GREELEY. There are two in the wild area classification, which is by definition similar to the wilderness-type area, which is the subject of this legislation.

Mr. MARSH. What would be the classification of those lands, in your opinion, in the event this legislation passed?

Mr. GREELEY. They would be wilderness areas under the legislation. Mr. MARSH. What effect would that have on their recreational potential? That is, camping and other types of recreation and other facilities, as fishing and driving in the area?

Mr. GREELEY. Well, driving into the areas specifically we are talking about New Hampshire, North Carolina, Minnesota, which would

be the eastern areas.

Mr. MARSH. I am thinking in terms of the Virginia area, the Pennsylvania area, the areas close to your metropolitan centers in the East.

Mr. GREELEY. The normal national forest areas in the Eastern States that are not included in these specific wilderness area would be available for general public recreation just as they are now.

Mr. MARSH. Right.

Mr. GREELEY. They would not be affected by the passage of this bill. Mr. MARSH. What I am saying is, you do not plan any conversion or change in the classification or method of use of the land within a 150- or 200-mile radius of Washington now?

Mr. GREELEY. The only respects in which there might be changes would be if there were additional proposals in the future for the designation of specific areas as wilderness areas, which, if this legislation is enacted, would only be done by an act of Congress.

Mr. MARSH. Yes. But the point I am making is, you do not contemplate any substantial change in the method for use of these lands that are in the immediate area.

Mr. GREELEY. No substantial change; no.

Mr. MARSH. I think that is all.

Mr. BARING. The gentleman from North Dakota.

Mr. ANDREWS. No questions.

Mr. BARING. The gentleman from Colorado.

Mr. ASPINALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

July 10 last year there was placed in the record a list of the mining activities in the wilderness areas, wild areas, as well as the primitive areas, between the period of September 6, 1961, and July 10, 1963, the period of almost 2 years.

I think the purpose of the Member of the other body who inserted the data was to show that "time runs out for wilderness," at least that is the statement that heads the article. But the article shows, if I read it correctly-and I do not know who made the determination as to the possible validity of the claims that were involved, but as far as the wilderness and wild areas that have appeared are concerned, there were only 453 claims apparently that were filed in this almost 9 million acres of land. Of that number 84 claims, as designated by some member of the Forest Service, might have validity, which, if true, would mean there would be only 1,600 acres, if I remember my mining law correctly, that might be declared to be a possible invasion by the mining industry of the wilderness concept. Have you kept up to date in your Department, Mr. Greeley, on this particular operation as to the number of claims that have been filed?

Mr. GREELEY. No, sir; we have not. Yesterday you were discussing this matter with Secretary Udall and requested information concerning a 6-year period. When I got back to the office, I started our people in trying to find what information we had, to facilitate getting the answer to that question. But I do not have any additional information other than this tabulation you just referred to, sir.

Mr. ASPINALL. When you answer my question as to the number of inholdings in these areas at the present time, this particular information which was placed in the Congressional Record, admitting its validity, would represent a very small area indeed, would it not? Mr. GREELEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. ASPINALL. Compared to the total number of inholdings.1
Mr. GREELEY. The acreage comparison speaks for itself.

Mr. ASPINALL. I ask unanimous consent that the tabulation I have referred to be made a part of the record at this point.

Mr. BARING. Without objection, so ordered.

Mr. ASPINALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (The tabulation follows:)

1 The data referred to appears at p. 1150.

Estimated number of mining claims filed on national forest lands in wilderness, wild, and primitive areas between Sept. 6, 1961, and July 10, 1963

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1 Duplications have been eliminated. It is estimated that the 537 claims include about 11,000 acres.

Wild

Primitive.

Total.

Mr. WHITE. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one other question?

Mr. BARING. The gentleman from Idaho.

Mr. WHITE. Mr. Greeley, are you suggesting these people owning private lands can build airstrips on their own pieces of property? If you are familiar with that area, are there many areas where landing strips can be built?

Mr. GREELEY. I did not mean that as a general answer. I think there is one person who is doing that; that is all that I had in mind, Mr. White.

Mr. WHITE. But is not the terrain necessarily limiting?

Mr. GREELEY. There are some of those properties on which an airstrip could not be constructed.

Mr. WHITE. Either because of the terrain itself or the approaches to it?

Mr. GREELEY. Right.

Mr. WHITE. Thank you.

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much, Mr. Witness.

The next witness is Mr. John C. Mason, Deputy General Counsel, Federal Power Commission.

Mr. Mason, we are very happy to have you with us.

STATEMENT OF JOHN C. MASON, DEPUTY GENERAL COUNSEL, FEDERAL POWER COMMISSION

Mr. MASON. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

I, as well as the Commission, appreciate the opportunity of appearing here today to support the Commission's report on the several wilderness bills. I was here yesterday when that report was incorporated in the record.

I have a relatively long prepared statement. When I say "relatively long," I mean compared to the other witnesses here from the Departments. That came about because in the Commission's report, much of the basis for the conclusions reached there are incorporated by reference to prior testimony before either this subcommittee or before the Senate Interior Committee.

I have attempted in this statement really to develop the background and the reason for the Commission's recommendation that a so-called savings clause be incorporated in any bill that might be adopted to provide, and I quote, "Nothing in this Act shall be construed as superseding, modifying, repealing or otherwise affecting the provisions of the Federal Power Act."

The Federal Power Commission appreciates the opportunity you are affording me to appear here today in support of the Commission's report on the several wilderness bills. The Commission's report was submitted to the committee on December 16, 1963, and I understand it has been placed in the hearing record.

In its report the Commission points out that its interest in these bills arises from the fact that they would set up a wilderness system embracing lands in both the presently designated primitive areas and wilderness areas, having existing and potential power values which are subject to the Federal Power Commission's authority under part I of the Federal Power Act-more particularly the authority under section 4(e) of that act to license the construction, operation and maintenance of project works for the generation of hydroelectric

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