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Mr. Moss. There might be that possibility. Although I wouldn't call it a probability based on the information we have seen.

Senator HANSEN. There is a subjective conclusion to reach. From what I have read, I gathered, at least as far as I am concerned, I would want to know more about the catalytic converter before we insist it be installed on all of our automobiles.

Mr. Moss. More important, I think you would want to know more about the increase in sulfates that might be caused from converting from oil to coal.

Senator HANSEN. Well, we would be happy to have any information you may want to submit for the record. Let me say that we don't really have left the choice, at least in my opinion we do not have left the choice, of deciding what kind of fuel we want to burn. If we are going to meet the crisis this winter, at least in my opinion, we are going to have to use coal. That is the one alternate source of energy that we have, it is not a case of what we might like to use, and what would be more desirable to use, oil or coal. Either use more coal or go without heat and light, just about that simple.

Mr. Moss. Senator, I disagree with that. There are a lot of other uses of energy that are less important than heat and light, particularly light at these levels, which would be dispensed with, which would be dispensed with if we didn't subsidize energy companies.

Senator HANSEN. That brings me to the next point I want to make. In your testimony, Mr. Moss, you have mentioned several times that we ought to stop subsidizing the energy industry, we ought to make the user pay the full cost. I couldn't agree more with you. I would like to do that. I see no reason at all for the price of American oil to be restricted artificially as it has been now by the Cost of Living Council, when it costs twice as much to buy oil from the other sections of the world. I am not sure at all if I understand your suggestion as to ways in which we could strike back at these foreign countries who seek to exploit our situation here by limiting exports from those countries. At the present time wouldn't it be naive to say to the Arab countries, you have raised the price of oil so we are now going to cut back what you get from us?

Mr. Moss. I am not suggesting restricting imports because the country raises the price, but I am suggesting raising or imposing restrictions on imports from countries that use their exports as political

weapons.

Senator HANSEN. What countries are you speaking of? Could you identify them for me?

Mr. Moss. Namely the countries in the Arab Middle East.

Senator HANSEN. Haven't they all done that. As I understand the last shipment of oil will be here in a couple of weeks and after that there will be no more shipments. Have you any evidence that there are other countries still exporting oil from the Arab countries to the United States?

Mr. Moss. I am not talking about the next month or two or three. I am saying after there is a settlement and after they open up the valves again.

Senator HANSEN. That is a lot of "ifs" isn't it?

Mr. Moss. I will agree, if they never export oil to the United States, then the question will not rise. There is a great danger to this country

in allowing those exports to build up to the high percentages they have built up to. You shouldn't let it happen.

Senator HANSEN. I imagine they are going to cooperate with us in not letting it happen. Let me ask you this. Does this approach offer immediate solutions or long range solutions to our energy crisis, as you understand it? This approach that you talk about, does it offer any solution, to say we are going to limit the imports they can make to this country now?

Mr. Moss. It wouldn't affect the situation in the next few months. First, of course, countries may be thinking more seriously about threatening to cut off exports to us, if they know they are going to be put in this category, in which the restriction on imports from such countries will limit 10 percent of our total production. Second, to finish that, it would be important because if we limit the amount if imports from these countries and auction off the imports right to the highest bidder that oil will have to be priced higher in the United States which means that cheap imported oil won't push out the development of domestic resources and make the domestic resources unavailable in emergency situations.

Senator HANSEN. I am afraid with raising standards of living in Japan the whole Western European economic community, and the consequent consumption of energy going up worldwide, and recognizing at the same time the size of the populations of the Arab countries, and the fact that they get twice as much for their oil, they need only sell half as much to get off just as well. I am afraid the threat we might pose to them at this time is a rather hollow one. They wouldn't be too exercised at this time because they can turn on any hand and find people ready, willing and able to buy their fuel. The Japanese have a tanker leaving the Arab countries and if you were to space them equal distances apart, they would stretch all the way from the Persian Gulf to Japan, only 50 miles apart. I think it is totally unrealistic to think that we are going to be in a position to dictate to the Arab countries on the basis of our buying power as to what sort of oil export policy to America they may want to develop.

Mr. Moss. Senator, that is not the point I was trying to make. What I was saying is whatever oil we do import should reflect the high political course of getting oil from that source. Therefore, a mechanism should be sought which would show the

Senator HANSEN. Thank you very much, Mr. Moss. I appreciate what you say. My feeling is we have the full cooperation of the Arab countries in seeing we are made well aware of that fact. Let me say again, gentlemen, you are very kind and very gracious to stay here so long. I know that your observations and comments will be welcome by the full committee. It is our intention to start marking up the bill tomorrow morning, and if you can have the precise language you think will be helpful, we would like to have it in order to better consider the entire ramifications of this complicated and important piece of legislation. Anything you would like to submit for the record, will be. It will remain open for a while and we will be happy to have it. If there is nothing further thank you very much.

[Whereupon at 8:15 p.m., the hearing was concluded.]

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Pursuant to S. Res. 45

A National Fuels and Energy Policy Study
NINETY-THIRD CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

S. 2589

A BILL TO DECLARE BY CONGRESSIONAL ACTION A NATION-
WIDE ENERGY EMERGENCY; TO AUTHORIZE THE PRESIDENT
TO IMMEDIATELY UNDERTAKE SPECIFIC ACTIONS TO CON-
SERVE SCARCE FUELS AND INCREASE SUPPLY; TO INITIATE
THE DEVELOPMENT OF LOCAL, STATE, NATIONAL, AND INTER-
NATIONAL CONTINGENCY PLANS; TO ASSURE THE CONTINUA-
TION OF VITAL PUBLIC SERVICES; AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

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For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office
Washington, D.C. 20402 Price $2.65

SENATE RESOLUTION 45

NATIONAL FUELS AND ENERGY POLICY STUDY

This publication is a background document for the National Fuels and Energy Policy Study authorized by Senate Resolution 45, introduced by Senators Jennings Randolph and Henry M. Jackson on February 4, 1971, and considered, amended, and agreed to by the Senate on May 3, 1971.

The resolution authorizes the Senate Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, and ex officio members of the Committees on Commerce and Public Works and the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, to make a full and complete investigation and study of National Fuels and Energy Policies.

This document is published to assist members of the Committee and other interested parties in their understanding of the issues inherent in the formulation of a long-term National Energy Policy which assures the continued welfare of the Nation, including balanced growth, safeguarding and enhancing the quality of the environment, and national security.

COMMITTEE ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS

HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington, Chairman

ALAN BIBLE, Nevada
FRANK CHURCH, Idaho
LEE METCALF, Montana

J. BENNETT JOHNSTON, JR., Louisiana
JAMES ABOUREZK, South Dakota
FLOYD K. HASKELL, Colorado
GAYLORD NELSON, Wisconsin

PAUL J. FANNIN, Arizona
CLIFFORD P. HANSEN, Wyoming
MARK O. HATFIELD, Oregon
JAMES L. BUCKLEY, New York
JAMES A. McCLURE, Idaho
DEWEY F. BARTLETT, Oklahoma

JERRY T. VERKLER, Staff Director
WILLIAM J. VAN NESS, Chief Counsel

HARRISON LOESCH, Minority Counsel

Ex Officio Members Pursuant to Section 3 of Senate Resolution 45

COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE

WARREN G. MAGNUSON, Washington, Chairman
NORRIS COTTON, New Hampshire

COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC WORKS

JENNINGS RANDOLPH, West Virginia, Chairman
HOWARD H. BAKER, JR., Tennessee

ALAN BIBLE, Nevada

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ATOMIC ENERGY

HOWARD H. BAKER, JR., Tennessee

WILLIAM J. VAN NESS, Chief Counsel

GRENVILLE GARSIDE, Special Counsel and Study Coordinator
RICHARD D. GRUNDY, Executive Secretary and Professional Staff
DANIEL A. DREYFUS, Professional Staff and Engineering Consultant
ARLON R. TUSSING, Staff Economist

DAVID STANG, Deputy Director for Minority
LUCILLE LANGLOIS, Staff Consultant

F. J. BARNES, Staff Consultant

PATRICIA E. STARRATT, Staff Energy Analyst

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[Additional statements and communications submitted for the record]

Communications submitted by

Peter G. Koltnow, vice president for professional affairs, Highway
Users Federation for Safety and Mobility---

564

George Meany, president, AFL-CIO___

569

James T. Corcoran, National Association of Motor Bus Owners__Harry C. Hunter, executive director, National Association of Convenience Stores___.

572

573

Ira W. Stults, district manager, Stop and Go Markets-
Robert D. Timm, Chairman, Civil Aeronautics Board__
John A. Buggs, staff director, Commission on Civil Rights__.

607

608

611

John Busterud, Acting Chairman, Council on Environmental Quality--
Charles A. Tobin, Secretary, Federal Trade Commission__

611

613

Dwight A. Ink, Acting Administrator, General Services Administration

614

George M. Stafford, Chairman, Interstate Commerce Commission_.
Daniel J. Evans, chairman, National Governors' Conference....
Ian MacGregor, chairman, American Metal Climax, Inc---

615

686

688

Russell L. Von Der Ahe, president, Von Der Ahe Van Lines, Inc----
J. Allen Overton, Jr., president, American Mining Congress_
Luke Williams, Jr., American Sign and Indicator Corp_-

691

723

723

Elmer H. Ostermeyer, vice president-general manager, American Red
Ball Transit Co., Inc.---

_724

Edward C. Snyder, Joplin, Mo---

724

Marion E. Drew, general manager, Pueblo Rock Wool Co-----
Richard Borden, president, Roadside Business Association__

725

725

Lowell W. Culver, professor, College of Business and Public Service,
Governors State University, Park Forest South, Ill.......

725

H. S. Howard, president, American Can Co----

727

Thomas H. Gibson, president, Virginia Travel Council, Skyline Cav-
erns, Inc.__.

727

T. S. Miles, president and chief executive officer, National Air Trans-
portation Conferences, Inc___.

728

Jerome I. Baskin, CPA, Jerome I. Baskin and Co-‒‒‒

748

W. F. Ragan, Ragan Law Offices, Washington, D.C___
Pierre de Montmarin, president, Peugeot, Inc.--

748

750

Philip M. Knox, Jr., vice president, governmental affairs, Sears,
Roebuck and Co---.

752

Richard C. Darling, senior Washington representative, J. C. Penney
Patrick J. Head, vice president, Montgomery Ward..
Eugene A. Keeney, American Retail Federation__.

752

753

754

Robert W. Crawford, president, Association of General Merchandise
Chains, Inc..

754

Ralph Lazarus, chairman of the board, Federated Department Stores,
Inc---

754

Frank I. Madigan, sheriff director, Office of Emergency Services...
Sheldon I. London, director of government relations, National Retail
Hardware Association...

755

757

Charles F. Wheatley, Jr., general manager, general counsel, American
Public Gas Association___

758

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