Mr. PUCINSKI. You are again denying you told Mr. Noland in March 1958 that you are the only man that could clean up 138 and asked for a job?

Mr. BATALIAS. I told Mr. Noland-he wanted to know who was capable and I gave him the names of individual members. He asked me, "Do you think you are capable of cleaning up local 138?"

I will say right now I think I am capable of cleaning up local 138. Mr. PUCINSKI. I think perhaps it was the other way around; several names were mentioned and you dismissed all those names and you finally reduced it down to yours as the only man.

Mr. BATALIAS. I will tell you it was not the other way around.
Mr. PERKINS. Do you have any further questions?

Mr. PUCINSKI. There is one more question. There is some question of your being beat up. I believe at that time when they were unable to find any bruise marks on you, anything on you to indicate you had been beaten up in a dispute, you were alleged to have made a statement that you had a heavy overcoat on; is that correct, and that is why the bruise marks did not show?

Mr. BATALIAS. That is probably correct.
Mr. PUCINSKI. I mean, is it correct?

Mr. BATALIAS. To my recollection of the events of that night I had an overcoat on; it was in the winter, and I was beaten up, which is correct. I was knocked out. I was tossed out. The biggest portion of these events took place before about 1,200 members. Well, maybe not 1,200, but I remember the meeting was packed that night.

Briefly, Mr. Pucinski, out of 1,200 members there is hardly more than half a dozen that would rise up and support me, and right now I am here before this committee and I do not believe there is one man that will stand up alongside of me.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Why is that?

Mr. BATALIAS. Why? Because, like I have been told for a good many years, you are beating your head against a stone wall and it is impossible to correct this situation. The situation is so corrupt that it influences Members of the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives.

Mr. PUCINSKI. I can assure you it has not influenced me or any member of this committee; that is for sure. This is the question I want to ask. When the doctors examined you and failed to find any bruise marks on you, were the doctors also influenced?

Mr. BATALIAS. The doctors made their diagnosis and they reported what their finds were. In regards to bruises, I can't account for any bruises. I cannot even say I was hit here or any place else. I will tell you I had two men on each arm, two men in front of me, two men behind me, two men were giving me rabbit punches in the neck, two others in the kidneys, and the others were giving me kicks in the groin.

Mr. PERKINS. Did the doctors find any bruise Mr. BATALIAS. They found internal injuries. colorations around the lower abdomen.

marks on your body? There were slight dis

Mr. PUCINSKI. The fact of the matter is you had a photographer over there?

Mr. BATALIAS. I did not have one there.

Mr. PUCINSKI. There was a photographer over there?

Mr. BATALIAS. I don't know. All I know, it was reported in the newspapers. For your information, the activities of Mr. DeKoeng have been reported in the newspapers for quite a number of years.

Mr. PUCINSKI. The pictures taken of you lying in the streets at that time show you in a sport jacket and not an overcoat.

Mr. BATALIAS. That I don't believe is true.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Who took the overcoat? Did you or did you have an overcoat. You told the authorities that the reason you d not have any bruise marks on you as a result of your allegations of a beating is because you had a heavy overcoat on but subsequently develops there was no overcoat involved.

Mr. BATALIAS. When people come to your assistance and examine you I don't know what they do but if I was knocked out I can't accout for why I was laying there, why a photographer was there.

Mr. PERKINS. Were there any bruises on your head?

Mr. BATALIAS. No, sir. I was given rabbit punches in the back of the neck.

Mr. PERKINS Mr. Dent?

Mr. DENT. IS Walter Miller one of the reform group?

Mr. BATALIAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DENT. Would you say he is a trustworthy person, you could rely on his statement if he made a statement?

Mr. BATALIAS. In the face of the issues that are here I am afraid that I am going to have to rely on what I am saying for this reason, Mr. Dent. I was issued an ultimatum. That was last Saturday.

Mr. DENT. I am satisfied that you have had a rough time but I am trying to get at it because of the roughness. One of your men you have already disowned. Another one

Mr. BATALIAS. I have not disowned him, believe me. I believe they are being misled by the fear of the integrity of high people in labor and Government.

Mr. DENT. In Government?

Mr. BATALIAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DENT. I think that you ought to name the persons in Government that are influencing your pals and your witnesses.

Mr. BATALIAS. I believe Mr. Kennedy has influenced my

Mr. DENT. You mean Mr. Kennedy is influencing people who are associated with you to the extent that they are no longer associated with you?

Mr. BATALIAS. That is not correct. After this testimony I am pretty sure they will not associate with me.

Mr. DENT. I want to read what Mr. Miller said about this incident of the overcoat since it was brought in the case.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you get this?

Mr. DENT. This is part of the trial that Mr. Witness had and in which the charges against one man were dismissed and the other seven men were exonerated by a jury. In this trial when he said that he had no bruises because he had on a heavy overcoat they brought forth a picture taken by the photographer incidentally who was summoned before the meeting because he was on hand when the meeting was held and so were the policemen, when the meeting started the policemen and the photographer were within the range of picture taking.

Mr. Miller said this. He said, "After that I stayed out with Pete Batalias and then I went inside and brought his overcoat out and covered him with the coat."

Now this is Mr. Miller, one of his own group.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you saying he layed down or took a dive?

Mr. DENT. All I am saying is that there were no marks on his body after six men beat him up. That is an awful hard way not to get marks.

Mr. BATALIAS. Perhaps you can explain how I got in front of the union hall and was carried through the membership and out into the

street.

Mr. DENT. I would say about the same way that they took you out of the judge's court. You were carried out probably.

Mr. BATALIAS. Perhaps you should examine the testimony and it will clean that matter up.

Mr. DENT. I did not read the testimony. I read the verdict and the verdict did not give credence to what you said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you consider the possibility of filing charges outside of union procedures?

Mr. DENT. He did file them in a court in two instances.

At this point I want to clear up one more matter before you take the floor.

You said you were run over by a car, that you in your own investigation found out that it was the husband of the woman you were supposed to be molesting, that they purported you were molesting, that rode over you. Was he a member of the union?

Mr. BATALIAS. His brother is a member of the union.

Mr. DENT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, that is all.

Mr. PERKINS. Mr. Griffin.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Mr. Chairman, if I may make a statement at this point, I think this committee is very anxious to get all the testimony that we possibly can that will, if necessary, show some of the abuses in the present labor situation, we want to clean up these abuses.

I think every member of this committee is very sincere in doing that. I very strongly resent the implications left by this witness. I question a good deal of his testimony here, based on various court trials and NLRB proceedings and the McClellan committee proceedings.

This man has had ample opportunity to make his case known to various authorities both in the labor movement and out of the labor movement. For him to come here today and suggest that we have been somehow influenced by some outside force in our jugdment, I personally have to object to that statement.

Mr. BATALIAS. I think you will find that labor and government has upheld my position. Mr. McClellan decreed that this local union was a national disgrace. The executive council of the AFL-CIO also agreed with me. The only stumbling block and the reason why nothing has been corrected in the situation is the fact that Mr. Meany personally is responsible and nobody dares move against Mr. Meany.

Mr. PUCINSKI. The record shows that Mr. Meany has given you all sorts of time and consideration, Mr. Wohl has talked to you. You tell us that he told you 2 weeks ago that they would get into this thing. They sent a monitor down there. There are 68,000 unions in this country, 15 million members, and you have gotten a hearing as an individual

which I think proves the case of Mr. Meany that they do show consis eration for people like yourself.

Obviously you have had troubles. I think the ethical practices con mittee has taken into consideration the problems that you have Mr. BATALIAS. May I interrupt?

Mr. PUCINSKI. Certainly.

Mr. BATALIAS. Mr. Wohl and Mr. Delaney agreed over a year age correct this situation. Mr. Kennedy has assured us that this situ tion has been corrected. But nothing has been done.

Yes; they appointed a monitor. In March 1958 they appointed M Richard Noland who is a disgrace to the labor movement. Then Mr. Meany personally appointed and announced publicly that Mr. Collins was going to correct the situation in local 138. Mr. Collins admitted to us that he had no authority.

Mr. PUCINSKI. You say nothing has been done simply because you have not been reinstated?

Mr. BATALIAS. Putting names in the newspapers does not corred the situation. You have to go into the local union and you have to correct it from the inside out.

Mr. PUCINSKI. I will assure you of one thing. I certainly am going to look into 138 to see whether or not all these allegations you have made are true.

Mr. AYRES. The witness has stated and I think it is an admitted fact. that there has been some rather unethical practices in the union. Senator McClellan he is quoting correctly. So the gentleman from Illinois will find that to be true.

I think the crux of it, Mr. Witness, is this. I don't care whether you had an overcoat on, whether they gave you a rabbit punch, whether they kicked you in the tummy or what. The point is that you would not be here today if the corruption had been corrected in the union! Mr. BATALIAS. That is correct.

Mr. AYRES. I am willing to take Senator McClellan's appraisal of this. I think he is the foremost authority on corrupt and bad prac tices in unions today. His testimony is good enough for me. Now whether you have bruises or not, I think it is an established fact that this local that you were a member of, needs some cleaning up.

Mr. BATALIAS. That is correct.

Mr. AYRES. Our point here in this committee is to try to write legislation in that direction. I know that Senator McClellan is interested in the same thing and the other members of that body. Now I do not think it is right for you to leave the inference that Members of Congress are being influenced by these corrupt things in labor.

I can appreciate your position, however, because it seems to me that whenever we have had a rank-and-file individual-we had a young lady down here from Duluth who was in the retail clerks union, we had some carpenters here yesterday, but the public must be getting an impression that when the rank and file comes in here to complain we try to build a case on the other side. So I can appreciate your concern in this respect.

Mr. DENT. Mr. Ayres, you don't hold the exclusive prerogative of wanting to clean up labor unions because many of us have done a lot of cleaning up long before you ever knew there was any corruption in unions. I just want to get one thing clear, that you establish in

any court, whether it is public hearing, private hearing or anything else, the credibility of the witness in giving the testimony that he is giving. It is a well-known axiom of law that once you are caught lying you are always a liar throughout the case.

I did not say the man lied. I am only reading the testimony given both in trials in court and in hearings before the McClellan committee. If you want to establish that there has been a lot of things happening in unions that are incorrect, I as a union member will testify to that. But I will also testify on the other side of the ledger and say that a heck of a lot of things happened on the part of management.

Mr. AYRES. Regardless of this witness' testimony I am willing to accept the statement of Senator McClellan that your union needs cleaning up.

Mr. DENT. Did you read the statement?

Mr. AYRES. Yes, I have read it.

Mr. DENT. Then let us have it.

Mr. AYRES. I don't have it here. He quoted the Senator correctly. Mr. DENT. If he said the union had corrupt practices, that has been established in many unions and management groups.

Mr. AYRES. Also significant is that the chief counsel of that committee, Mr. Robert Kennedy, told you it would be cleaned up and he would not have told you it would be cleaned up if there had not been corruption there?

Mr. BATALIAS. That is right. I would say Mr. Meany is stalling in cleaning up. We are here discussing the ethical practices code and this bill. Now Mr. Meany's position in this case proves that the ethical practices committee is worthless. You have to get the man's approval before he will decide to clean the situation up. If the record did not show that it had to be corrected, why was he so anxious to send Mr. Wohl to New York to effect a compromise?

Mr. DENT. Mr. Witness, I think you might have had some sad experiences. We all know what that does to a person. But I cannot find anybody you have ever known that was any good. That is a very difficult thing for me to swallow. These very men who started out to help you-Mr. Kennedy is now participating in this so-called vendetta against you; Mr. Meany, the head of all.

Mr. BATALIAS. I ask you retract that statement.

Mr. DENT. I will read it from the record.

Mr. BATALIAS. I will give you my impressions of Mr. Kennedy's position on this bill. I believe that Mr. Kennedy is primarily concerned with the passage of his brother's bill which is more important to the individuals in rank and file in our specific case.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Mr. Witness, on that point, you have been trying to get some sort of relief, you claim, since November 1958 ? Mr. BATALIAS. From November 1958?

Mr. PUCINSKI. Yes.

Mr. BATALIAS. All I wanted was a job in 1958.

Mr. PUCINSKI. You have been appearing before various bodies, various agencies with your complaint. Isn't it a fact that under the Kennedy bill you could have avoided, you could have been saved all this difficulty merely by making your complaint to the Secretary of Labor who could have then moved in and taken over and cleaned that situation up. Isn't that a fact?