I have been signing and swearing allegiance to America ever since I was a Boy Scout; did so when I entered the service in World War I, and have done so thousands of times since, including the oath that I did not belong to any organization that advocated or taught the overthrow of my Government.

When I became a Member of Congress I took an oath. Every clerk or employee connected with this Congress, everyone who works for this Government, takes that kind of oath now, up comes a bunch of college professors thinking it is so horrible and terrible to have to say they will not belong or do not belong to an organization that teaches the overthrow of this Government.

Here we are pouring out billions of dollars to teachers and professors to teach people. Are they going to instruct kids that they do have a right to belong to organizations that teach the overthrow of this Government.

I shall resist the removal of these obligations with everything there is in me. I do not think that is going to make any loyal citizen out of anybody, but the very fact that somebody raises the question and resists making a full declaration of loyalty raises some question in my mind.

Now, I could not sit here and let that go.

Mr. THOMPSON. I can understand the chairman's sentiments. I might point out that as well as is known, I doubt that a practicing Communist would have any hesitation on swearing on any number of Bibles that he was not a Communist.

Chairman BARDEN. It will not hurt him to tell one more lie which he will gladly do.

Mr. BAILEY. Gentlemen, we will thresh this out in executive session when we are ready to vote on this bill.

Mr. LAFORE. For the record, I would like to associate myself with the chairman and his remarks.

Mr. DANIELS. I do likewise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Chairman, before we leave this section, because it deals with the administration of the acts, I would like to ask the Commissioner, how are you administering this particular provision? It says that an affidavit shall be filed with the Commissioner. Has a form been drawn up and is this thing in operation now?

Mr. DERTHICK. Dr. Babbidge, would you report in response to Mr. Griffins question?

Mr. BABBIDGE. Forms have been developed in connection with each program under which students received assistance. They will be required to fill out the form.

Mr. GRIFFIN. May I suggest that it be inserted in the record at this point.

Mr. BABBIDGE. We will be very happy to do so.

Mr. WIER. Mr. Chairman, I see a difference here of a point of view. I have no objection at all to the allegiance to the United States, but the Communists, they are something else again. I think everybody here ought to take allegiance, but the allegiance and the Communist oath are two different things.

Chairman BARDEN. As long as I am willing to do what I have done, and that is bare my chest to the bullets of enemy nations, I am willing to take any oath and preserve it and keep a screwball from getting

into a position of spreading some kind of propaganda or something that will harm my Government.

I feel that very strongly.

I must say this: I think Mr. Flemming should entertain himself in some other manner than attacking these requirements which were approved and passed by the Congress of the United States, and signed by the President.

We are representatives of the people and we, likewise, are servants like the rest. So I am not so fond of Mr. Flemming's attack. If he has a suggestion to make about it, the committee is the proper place to do it and not shower that kind of stuff on Members of Congress who are doing the best they can to safeguard and protect this country from every type of enemy or termite that might relish an opportunity to dig from within.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask this question:

Mr. Commissioner, a few days ago I was discussing with Mr. Bailey just what confronted us in the field of education this year and I asked Mr. Bailey if he would, during these hearings-he said he was going to have you and the Administrator down-and before we begin to launch into other fields of education, to see if we could not kind of look around and see what we have already done.

Otherwise, we will be legislating on legislation.

Have you been able to set up the various departments, and I will confess with you that that bill covers the waterfront, the whole picture of education, I thought-have you been able at this early date to set up machinery for all of the activities provided for in this overall bill?

Mr. DERTHICK. Yes, sir. Before you came in, Mr. Barden, in introducing the key staff members that were here I related them to different titles of the act and to the machinery that we have established for administering.

Chairman BARDEN. I apologize for going back over it, but I did think it would be very definitely helpful to the committee to have that in front of us so that we would not find ourselves dabbling in something that is already in operation with the idea of passing legislation.

Mr. DERTHICK. Yes, sir. May I ask a question of you, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. BAILEY. You may.

Mr. DERTHICK. You mentioned yesterday that you might possibly want to continue this report tomorrow morning. I ask that in order to say this:

Dean Elder of Harvard, who is in charge of title IV, the fellowship program; Dr. Parker of Indiana University, have pretty firm commitments to engage in some other activities tomorrow out of the city. If you want us to come back tomorrow, may I suggest that we hear their reports today on titles IV and the title VI, lest we might not have them available tomorrow.

Would that be an appropriate suggestion.

Mr. BAILEY. It will be fine, Doctor, if the suggestion had come a half hour ago. It is now 10 minutes to 12. Mr. Reed of New York, a Member of Congress, died this morning and there will be no business transacted in the House other than eulogies to Mr. Reed, and I assume those will probably be concluded by 2 o'clock so I am going to ask the committee to reconvene at 2:30 this afternoon.

Mr. DERTHICK. We shall be very happy to do that, Mr. Chairman. Mr. BAILEY. That also means if you need the time I have left tomorrow open so that it will not interfere with any other witness. If we cannot finish this afternoon, I will ask you to come back to

morrow.

The committee will reconvene at 2:15 p.m.

Mr. DERTHICK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

(Thereupon, at 11:50 a.m., the subcommittee was recessed, to reconvene at 2:15 p.m., same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. BAILEY. The subcommittee will be in order.

When the committee recessed its hearings earlier today, it was decided that we would, since we disposed of title 2 covering loans to students, loans to institutions, that we would take up this afternoon with a discussion on title 4.

I have just learned that a former member of our committee here, Mr. Metcalf, has a question he would like to ask on student loans before we leave that.

Mr. Metcalf, you have the floor for the present.

Mr. METCALF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think Mr. Thompson brought this matter to your attention this morning. I want to clarify it a little bit.

Mr. BAILEY. Now do I have to talk to you like I did to the witnesses? Get that voice up a little bit.

Mr. METCALF. Yes, sir; Mr. Chairman. Sometimes it does not take your admonition to keep my voice up.

The problem was presented by Dr. Renne, who is president of Montana State College. I have a long letter from him in which he states. that he had applied after Montana was allocated an amount of $30,000; had he applied for $330,000, which he could have under your regulations, he could have received what he feels would have been his proportionate share. Instead, he applied for what he felt was a responsible application. Montana State University applied in the same form, but they made a mistake in their application and filled the wrong columns. Montana State University in Column C-3 of the form which is entitled "Institutional application to participate in the national defense education loan program," asked for $50,000. They meant to ask for only $10,000.

Then they asked permission to correct their application but permission was denied. So then they get about three times as much money because of a mistake at Montana State College.

He points out that there is not anything like a fair distribution. Now I have received the report and it seems to me that the only solution is for us to write into the bill a simple amendment, to say that there shall be a ceiling and a floor. I would like to have a comment on that.

Mr. DERTHICK. We spent the morning discussing these issues and I only say that to get ready for perhaps a relatively brief response. Mr. METCALF. Mr. Thompson has told me something about your discussions.

37376-593

Mr. DERTHICK. We are very grateful, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Metcalf came back this afternoon. We think he belongs on this committee anyway.

Mr. Muirhead, who is immediately in charge of that loan program, would you like to respond to the Congressman?

Mr. MUIRHEAD. Yes. Responding to the latter question first, if I may

Mr. DERTHICK. Mr. Bailey wants your voice up.

Mr. MUIRHEAD. Yes, Mr. Bailey.

Mr. BAILEY. That ought to be one of the requirements down to the department.

Mr. DERTHICK. I try to set a good example, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MUIRHEAD. In responding to your latter question first, relative to a ceiling and a minimum, the act does now provide a ceiling of $250,000 to any institution. It does not now provide a minimum.

In response to your first question, that particular case was discussed this morning and we did get the report from the office relative to the institution which you mentioned. Their request was for $65,000.

Mr. METCALF. By mistake because, as they say, they filled in the wrong column. President Castle of Montana State University asked that he be allowed to correct it, his original request be entered in column C-1 instead of column C-3. As a result of that mistake, they got a lot more money.

Mr. THOMPSON. Maybe that is what that teachers' college in Massachusetts should have done.

Mr. MUIRHEAD. I have no knowledge whether or not the president asked to have it changed. If he asked to have it changed after the allotments were made, then we had no choice because the request had been certified by the Commissioner and it had been agreed to by contract by the Commissioner.

Mr. METCALF. According to Dr. Renne's letter, and this is only a letter from Dr. Renne as to what Dr. Castle asked you, he said Mr. Muirhead indicated that allotments had already been made and correction could not be made.

Mr. MUIRHEAD. Yes.

Mr. BABBIDGE. Correction certainly can be made in the distribution of any supplemental funds made available, however.

Mr. DERTHICK. Mr. Chairman, if I may say so, I believe the way to correct that, since the error was detected after the allotments were made, is when the next allocation is set out, to make it at that time; in other words, to withhold from the assignment of funds to that institution the proper amount.

(Letter from Mr. Renne follows:)

MONTANA STATE COLLEGE,
Bozeman, February 6, 1959.

Congressman LEE METCALF,

United States Congress,
Washington, D. C.

DEAR LEE: Following up our telephone conversation of this morning, I am submitting a fairly complete report on the allocation of Federal funds totaling $6 million to colleges and universities in 49 States by the U.S. Commissioner of Education for the establishment of the national defense student loan programs. When we received notification from the Commissioner on February 2 that our allotment was $2,979, or 12.65 percent of the total State allotment of $23,549, I immediately wired Mr. Peter P. Muirhead, Chief, Student Loan Section, Financial Aid Branch, Division of Higher Education, U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, Washington, D. C., as follows:

"Reurlet January 30, Control Number 2324035, there must be gross mistake identification our institution with allotment $2,979, Montana State College. This institution has 40 percent of all students enrolled in six units of university system and 34 percent of all students enrolled in public and private higher educational institutions in Montana. Your allotment for Montana State College is 12.65 percent of total State allotment of $23,549. Please wire or phone collect if this in error or what method used in determining our allotment. Have checked with acting president, Montana State University, Missoula, they have 500 less students than Montana State College but alloted $10,468 although they requested only $10,000. We requested $18,500. Present allotment grossly unfair Montana State College student body and I must protest vigorously but will await your explanation before taking further action."

Commissioner Derthick had instructed us to direct correspondence in connection with allocations to Mr. Muirhead.

The next day we received a telephone call from Mr. Muirhead in which he indicated he very much regretted the apparent unfair allocation but stated that the wording of the National Defense Education Act of 1958, section 203, was such that they had no choice in how the allocations were to be made. While section 202 provides that allocations to each State shall be made in amounts which bear the same ratio to the amount appropriated by Congress as the number of persons enrolled on a full-time basis in institutions of higher education in each State bears to the total number of persons enrolled on a full-time basis in institutions of higher education in all the States, section 203 provides that "In the event the total requested in applications by institutions of higher education in a State exceeds the amount of the allotment of the State the Federal capital contribution from such allotment to each institution shall bear the same ratio to the amount requested in its application as the amount of such allotment available for such purpose bears to the total requested in all such applications."

You can see from the above wording that unless applications by institutions are scanned carefully and the reasonableness of such allocations determined in relation to the comparative student enrollments, one institution can turn in a ridiculously high request and thereby secure the bulk of the loan funds. It is our belief that the objective of Congress in passing the National Defense Education Act of 1958 and special title 2, "Loans to students in institutions of higher education," was to see that loan funds were put where the students are. A careful review of the allotments made by the Commissioner of Education of the $6 million in loan funds made available by the Congress reveals that this objective is not being met. I will give you several examples to show how absurd and unreasonable the allocations are.

These allocations are taken from mimeographed release HEW-J20 which was released Tuesday, February 3, 1959, from the U.S. Office of Education, containing 49 pages and showing allocations to 1,227 colleges and universities in all of the States, the District of Columbia, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico (we received this Wednesday, February 4). Enrollment data are taken from Circular No. 518 "Opening Enrollment in Higher Educational Institutions, Fall, 1957” published by the U.S. Office of Education, January 1958 (we have not yet received the January 1959 edition).